Can we reduce penalties for slow game start?

[mickalot]

I've had several games in the last few months where one or more players don't get notified in their browser that the game has started. It seems to bring out the best and worst of the other players -- some players kindly direct-message opponents to let them know the game has begun or offer to abandon, while others aggressively hurry to expel the player (especially in Arena mode) and will even reject proposals to abandon, presumably in a rush to get free (unearned) ELO points?

It feels unfair when the missing player *wants* to play, and perhaps is *trying* to play, but for reasons beyond their control (sometimes because of BGA server slowness), isn't able to do so in the allotted time. Once a game is underway, I understand that people get sensitive about people overrunning their timers, but before the game feels like a different problem.

Is there some way we could de-incentivize people expelling at the start of a game -- or somehow incentivize them to abandon, instead?

I'm not clear how to accomplish that goal, but here's a rough suggestion for for multi-player games (3+ players): if one player decides to expel another player *before* their first move, could BGA notify the other players at the table to give them an opportunity to offer abandonment, instead of expulsion (where the expelling player would not be an obstacle to abandonment)?

If I'm repeating something that's been discussed ad nauseum, apologies -- but in that case I'd be grateful for any pointer to forum thread(s) on this topic so I can read up! (I tried searching for "expel" and "expulsion" but didn't see threads that seemed relevant.)

Thanks!

[nik592]

You have one POV on this situation, but I'm sure there are others who have spent time queueing for a game, only to have another player not show up, and restart the whole process. That's frustrating too, especially if it happens more than once. I'm not clear by what you mean by their browser not notifying them - does this mean a person isn't paying attention to the browser where they've queued for a real-time game, or do you mean the page just hasn't refreshed to show that a game is now happening? Or have they wandered off from their computer to make a coffee or something, and didn't get back to their computer in time? Yes, there are legitimate reasons, but there is also inconsiderate behaviour that does deserve to be penalised, and unfortunately, it's difficult to be able to tell the difference in the moment. If it's a legitimate reason and one-time thing, the penalty should be easily recovered, but if it's something happening regularly, then they should be considering what they can do to minimise the risk of it happening again. For example, on the rare occasion I queue for a RT game, I have that open in a separate browser window on one half (or less) or my screen, while I then do other things in another browser window while I wait. And if I decide to wander off for any reason, I stop the queue (which I know can sometimes not work, but again, that should be a rare occurrence).

[Exotic Dreams]

I don't think players should ever get penalties over tech issues such as games not loading. Espeically if the issues are happening on BGA's side.

[FrankJones]

I think everyone here is making good point, so I'll just offer this:

Most people are well aware that sometime the interface does not indicate a game has started.

There is an easy solution to this. If you have the BGA page lauded on your computer or phone or iPad, just refresh any page. Then, the Yellow icon (composed of 4 circles and a diamond with a white number in a red circle attached to the right of this icon) will indicate how many games in which it is your turn.
If that number has increased, then a new game has started.

Do this a few times a day, and you'll always know whether new turn-based games have started. I have never had a problem with my clock running on a game I did not realize had started.

In other words: Don't just look at whichever BGA page you have on your screen, see that it is not your turn in any games, and say, "okay, nothing to do here, I'll go work for 8 hours". Assume that something may have changed. The pages do not auto-update. refresh the page, and you might discover it's your turn in some new games.

[nik592]

I don't think players should ever get penalties over tech issues such as games not loading. Espeically if the issues are happening on BGA's side.

Where there is a widespread issue with BGA, penalties are supposed to be reversed. I've had times where from my side it appears to be another player's turn, but something has just gone wrong with my connection (and my own time was actually ticking away). I couldn't tell you if that's a problem on my side or BGA's. By the time I realised, my own time was expired and I was booted. I've since learned to refresh my page if a turn seems to be taking a while, just in case this happens. Was I happy that I got a penalty in that situation? Not really, but while I can claim it wasn't my fault, how can BGA be sure of that (especially as I myself wasn't sure of that)? Where BGA isn't experiencing a major outage, on what are they supposed to base a decision on whether to reverse or let a penalty stand? If it's just on the user's say-so, then everyone would just claim it wasn't their fault. Not to mention all the extra work for BGA in making those determinations and reversing penalties. Instead, basically penalties aren't reversed unless there's a major outage on BGA side (again, allegedly - I've never experienced this and I've heard claims from some that this doesn't always happen - but that's a whole different issue). Most of the time when I've been booted, it was my fault in some way. Where it wasn't, I've learned strategies that can prevent some problems from happening to me (eg. refreshing the page if it's been sitting on someone's turn for a while). The few remaining times I am booted I barely notice - they are infrequent enough that I can easily earn back the reputation through normal play. I've never had any features of the site blocked for me due to being kicked out of a game for reasons that weren't my fault (that said, I only play RT very occasionally).

Do this a few times a day, and you'll always know whether new turn-based games have started. I have never had a problem with my clock running on a game I did not realize had started.

Usually when people talk about this issue, they are referring to RT games. I checked the user's profile for the last 10 days and found 5 games that ended due to a player being skipped at less than 10% complete (most 3 or less, but one was 7), and they were all RT. Interesting, the OP was the booted party in 3 of these 5, which probably explains their feelings about it. But again I would say (to OP and/or your opponents) consider if you could be doing anything to make sure you're not missing the start of a game. If you're doing everything you can and it's still happening regularly, maybe RT play isn't for you.

[FrankJones]

I see. I was thinking turn- based games.

Okay, as you noted, if the other players were able to move, then it wasn't a site-wide issue. When playing a real-time game, any player in the game would be well-advised to press F5 (or whatever the equivalent is on an ipad or phone) to ensure not missing a turn. It's a known problem that sometimes the page does not update for whatever reason.

Especially after it happens once.

If I am playing real-time, and one of my opponents clock is running for what seems like an unnecessary length of time, my first instinct is to refresh the page.

[Jellby]

aggressively hurry to expel the player [...] presumably in a rush to get free (unearned) ELO points?

Now, that sounds like "projecting" and attributing intentions without direct evidence. Why "aggressively"? Why not regretfully? Why "presumably in a rush"? Maybe they're just fed up with people not showing up. Maybe they had it done on them several times before. Maybe they don't know what abandon means (in the context of BGA), maybe they think (sometimes with good reasons) that abandonment unjustly favors other players.

Expelling out-of-time players is part of the (BGA) game, whether players have good reasons to be out of time or not. Anyone is entitled to do it. Do not read more into it than that: it can be done, some (sometimes) choose to, some (sometimes) choose not to.