Asteroid Mining Consortium

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jaymc1130
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by jaymc1130 »

[quote=FrankJones post_id=216837 time=1749933250 user_id=

3) I have played hundreds of games. I wish I knew why some of the high-Elo players on this site sometimes assume anyone not rated 700 is inexperienced.
[/quote]

This isn’t what Corvus intended. I think I know him well enough to say that what he means is “Over the hundreds and even thousands of games I’ve played and collected data on the data clearly supports the notion that power production is worth more than its face value in credits while many other forms of production are worth less than their face value so accounting for that can help determine what play is optimally efficient.” He and I have a tendency to speak or write in a manner that comes off as (unintentionally) condescending at times, but trust me he’s definitely not making any assumption that you’re an inexperienced player by any means. He’s known you for far to long for that to be the case.
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Corvus Mortis
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by Corvus Mortis »

HappyMeaI wrote: 14 June 2025, 21:11I don’t think that deeply about this game. I don’t think the skill ceiling is high, and I certainly don’t think there is much edge to be had in the 300 —> oo elo range because of the lack of complexity the current deck has to offer. There is an extreme amount of variance in this game and any edge is often negated by an engine that you’ll see in nearly 100% of your games which revolves around Mars-U or AI Central.
With respect, the top-rated players in this game are beating you 75-80% of the time. To say you don’t think the skill cap is high strikes me as just sore sportsmanship. A 2p game certainly does not come down to just AI + Mars U. These cards lose all the time.
So when I make my plays, I’m generally working off of muscle memory of what leads to the best outcome starting with what cards are not good vs. which ones are good. I tend to do pretty well, and I don’t have any spreadsheets up on the side like some of you probably do to help assist in what the absolute optimal combo is to play.
I do not use a spreadsheet, nor do you need one to play >550 Elo level.
I also rarely play hackers, but when I do I often win the game. I am not top 10 on the arena ladder like some of you, because I do not have the time nor will power dedicated to becoming top 10 on arena. I have taken games off of several top 10ers. I’ve beaten 600s 700s, but I also believe being in the top 10 of the HU arena is simply a combination of consistently winning more than 50% of your games, putting in massive volume, and running well.
Of course you’ve taken games off of 600s and 700s. That’s what probability looks like. It does not take massive volume. I’ve played 25% more games than you, hardly a massive difference. Your win rate is 61%, which compares with the top players in the 80-85% range. It’s not about volume, it’s about playing better.
Point is, at the end of the day, most of these subtleties in “efficient expenditure” only matter in a vacuum, because HU is mostly a coin toss.
I’d love to see your coin that comes up heads 84% of the time.
Last edited by Corvus Mortis on 14 June 2025, 22:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Corvus Mortis
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by Corvus Mortis »

FrankJones wrote: 14 June 2025, 21:341) That's not what I meant. What I meant was, the cost and value are variable. And when I have only one energy production, I tend to think it's a bit of gamble to play an "okay" card that decreases it to zero, knowing that a better card might come up next draft. So, it's not a question of, "Does playing Cuploa City here justify the price of the card and the energy decrease", but rather. "Even though Cupola City returns a decent combination of points and income, it is enough of a surplus to spend my last energy production?" I'm not sure we can use a set value for energy production in situations like that.
I agree that energy has variable value. But unless you have easy + cheap access to >3 energy, valuing it at 8-9 MC gen 1 is a good rule-of-thumb. That’s why I said Hackers isn’t unplayable. Occasionally you have tons of energy and Hackers is a no-brainer. It’s just most of the time not a good card.
2) I'll play power plant Gen 1 if I need the energy for something. I'm not playing it just to get delayed heat production, and risk having someone swipe it with an energy stealing card.
Of course. When I said “you’re happy to play Power Plant gen 1”, I do not mean that you literally just drop Power Plant with nothing to do with it. Just that you are happy to have access to 7 MC power. That’s not the true value.
3) I have played hundreds of games. I wish I knew why some of the high-Elo players on this site sometimes assume anyone not rated 700 is inexperienced.
I didn’t say otherwise. You’re clearly an experienced player!
FrankJones
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by FrankJones »

@Jay and
@Corvus

I misinterpreted, my fault. My response may have been influenced by some prior experience on the forums here in which I sensed some intended condescension.

Okay, to address the points made by Happy-Meal and Corvus:

TFM is definitely a high-variance game. As such, It's difficult to know one's own level with any certainty. We have seen two people recently get to 800, then fall back down in the 700s or lower. Royal Rook recently went from 600 to 490 to 725. This is indicative of a high variance game. Determining which of any two players is better would require much more than 5 or even 10 games of heads-up play between the two players. (Corvus, you correctly alluded to this previously).

I doubt we will ever see a 900 Elo player at TFM, and definitely not 1000, which some games have. There is just too much variance, and too few people at or above 700.

I have moved more toward lower variance games because I get frustrated playing games I feel as though I lost and could not do anything about. This has happened to me in TFM and "Earth", a game I like very much, but which is heavily dependent on the cards, in a similar way to TFM.

TFM has enough skill, and more important, enough high-volume players to result in a large pool of players rated between 500 and 700. This gives players the opportunity to strive for and reach 700 Elo. That is not the case in all games.

For example, Open Face Chinese Poker. The variance in this game is so high, It's almost impossible to reach 300 Elo. It's a thorn in my side because it's the only game of the 13 games I play regularly that I cannot get to 300. This, despite the fact that I firmly believe I am better than anyone on this site at the game, and I have demonstrated mastery of this game on other platforms.

At the other end of the spectrum are zero-luck games such as GP, Pente, Connect6, gomoku. I play 2 of these games and am thus far undefeated in both. On one is going to beat me in those game by puck or RNG. In one of them, Pente, I am very confident I could rise to the number 1 spot, perhaps doing so without being defeated.

I don't feel that TFM has enough complexity or opportunity to make brilliant strategic maneuvers often enough to outplay a bad-luck situation. It's why I don't play the game year in and year out like some of the dedicated veterans do. I admire the patience and tenacity of those who do.

But that's not for me, and It seems Happy-Meal feels the same way. I'd rather spend 6 hours finding the winning sequence in a game of Pente or Connect6 than playing 4 games of TFM.

For me, TFM will always be a favorite - it was pretty much my first dive into the world of fascinating thematic strategy games, which led to my discovering many others which I enjoy very much. But these days I mostly prefer friendly mode games where I am not risking Elo to an unkind RNG-based face-down deck of cards.

If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into the kind of pure strategy/skill game I enjoy, here is a good link:

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=684521803

Simple game - play 2 stones per turn, get 6 in a row to win.
Any 4-stone formation within 6 spots must be blocked, and an "open 4" must be blocked at both ends.

This as a highly defensive battle, with a lot of moves being made solely to gain position on the perimeter rather than by directly attacking with forcing moves.

On my 8th turn, I was able to finally gain the initiative with E13 and E14 and set up a win-by-continuous-forcing-threat, which my opponent recognized after my 9th turn, essentially conceding by declining to block my 4-stone threat and playing random stones away from the thread. (Not uncommon in stone games that are clearly lost).

TFM, and similar games such as "Earth" or "Race for the Galaxy" or other deck-based engine builders are just not the same, and as such, it's a lot more difficult to quantify exactly what the value of cards are or even whether a move is optimal or correct.

My opinion is that discussion and analysis or TFM would be better served if all parties involved toned down, to some extent, the definitiveness of some of their statements, for the reasons I have given.

In my Connect6 game I posted, I can say with near certainty that my 8th move to E13 and E14 leads to a win, and I can say with 100% certainty that my subsequent move does.

TFM analysis just won't ever be so definitive.

Do I believe that the better player will win a heads-up match of TFM if 200 games are played between the two players? Probably, but there's enough variance that I would not be certain. Whereas, it would take far fewer games for the better [Pente, GO, Connect6, GoMoku] player to win a majority of those games; I would say that a 10-game sample would be likely definitive in demonstrating who the better player is (Or that the players are equally matched in the result of a 5-5 tie).
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HappyMeaI
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by HappyMeaI »

Corvus Mortis wrote: 14 June 2025, 21:59
HappyMeaI wrote: 14 June 2025, 21:11I don’t think that deeply about this game. I don’t think the skill ceiling is high, and I certainly don’t think there is much edge to be had in the 300 —> oo elo range because of the lack of complexity the current deck has to offer. There is an extreme amount of variance in this game and any edge is often negated by an engine that you’ll see in nearly 100% of your games which revolves around Mars-U or AI Central.
(1)
With respect, the top-rated players in this game are beating you 75-80% of the time. To say you don’t think the skill cap is high strikes me as just sore sportsmanship. A 2p game certainly does not come down to just AI + Mars U. These cards lose all the time.
So when I make my plays, I’m generally working off of muscle memory of what leads to the best outcome starting with what cards are not good vs. which ones are good. I tend to do pretty well, and I don’t have any spreadsheets up on the side like some of you probably do to help assist in what the absolute optimal combo is to play.
(2)
I do not use a spreadsheet, nor do you need one to play >550 Elo level.
I also rarely play hackers, but when I do I often win the game. I am not top 10 on the arena ladder like some of you, because I do not have the time nor will power dedicated to becoming top 10 on arena. I have taken games off of several top 10ers. I’ve beaten 600s 700s, but I also believe being in the top 10 of the HU arena is simply a combination of consistently winning more than 50% of your games, putting in massive volume, and running well.
(3)
Of course you’ve taken games off of 600s and 700s. That’s what probability looks like. It does not take massive volume. I’ve played 25% more games than you, hardly a massive difference. Your win rate is 61%, which compares with the top players in the 80-85% range. It’s not about volume, it’s about playing better.
Point is, at the end of the day, most of these subtleties in “efficient expenditure” only matter in a vacuum, because HU is mostly a coin toss.
(4)
I’d love to see your coin that comes up heads 84% of the time.
I’m on my phone so I’m going respond to these using their numbers:

(1) Most of this is nonsense. I’m not sure where you’re pulling this 84% stat from. The skill ceiling is not high because the components that make up the victor in these games consists of a few basic math calculations and the rest is card draw. The majority of the field especially above the 250-300 elo range have an adequate understanding of the formula. There are sprinkles of gamesmanship, but this isn’t chess. The best player will not win all the time, certainly not even close to 84%. You have no idea what 4 cards will show up in the next draft, nor will you know but a fraction of the cards your opponent holds, but you can speculate. This also isn’t StarCraft or League of Legends. There are no mechanics involved. The closest analogy to this game would be poker, and as a professional poker player, I can tell you this. When you have a table full of similar “elo” players, the smallest edges are washed out by the short term variance, which also deludes players into establishing somewhat of a hierarchy among themselves based on who is running the best. I can see this happening right here in these forums. As for AI/Mars-U losing all the time, and you being a big fan of stats. Didn’t someone earlier in the AI thread reference some HU data that shows both of those cards having a 90% win rate? So no, they do not lose all the time.

(2)
I’ll take your word for it, but trust me there are players on here that do.

(3)
You cannot use this argument of probabilities against me and be immune to it yourself, that is fallacious. It’s always about improving and playing better, but volume is the most important factor. That is why the top 10 spots are constantly fluctuating. Thoth hasn’t been playing, so he’s not even in the top 10 anymore. I’m not sure the W/R stat on a profile page is very accurate. Doesn’t it include all games and not just HU? I’ve also seen 110% winrates which don’t make sense either. So while 80-85% is very good, I think 61% is also quite good and probably includes a lot of fluff in there.

(4) …
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jaymc1130
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by jaymc1130 »

HappyMeaI wrote: 14 June 2025, 23:24
It’s always about improving and playing better,
If you really felt that way and understood this notion then you wouldn’t be acting so butt hurt after asking for advice and explanations and then ignoring it when a handful of the world’s best players over the last 5-6 years provide you with the requested advice and explanations. It certainly is about constantly improving, but you’re continuing to prove that this isn’t what you actually want to do with your statements.

And as a professional poker player myself for the better part of a decade in my 20s I can tell you for certain that none of us who ever made a living at that game did it based on short term results as the game is a pure long term grind it out kind of deal unless you’re being sponsored to play tourneys. You don’t play cash games with anything other than a long term mindset and knowing that you’re gonna have to put in mad hours to eek out your skill advantage over time.
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Corvus Mortis
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by Corvus Mortis »

FrankJones wrote: 14 June 2025, 23:04 @Jay and
@Corvus

TFM is definitely a high-variance game. As such, It's difficult to know one's own level with any certainty. We have seen two people recently get to 800, then fall back down in the 700s or lower. Royal Rook recently went from 600 to 490 to 725. This is indicative of a high variance game. Determining which of any two players is better would require much more than 5 or even 10 games of heads-up play between the two players. (Corvus, you correctly alluded to this previously).

I doubt we will ever see a 900 Elo player at TFM, and definitely not 1000, which some games have. There is just too much variance, and too few people at or above 700.
I mean I agree with everything in your post. There are obviously many more pure-skill games out there (eg, Chess, Go, etc.). But you're underappreciating the skillfulness of this game. The top of the Steam leaderboard has been the same small set of players for years now. Most of the BGA leaderboard is comprised of the same players atop the leaderboard over there. Yes, there is variance and on Steam you'll see people move around, but over long periods of time there have been a short list of players rated 2150+. That's not just someone getting lucky, it's someone being more skillful.
FrankJones
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by FrankJones »

Definitely - but it does take time.

I might be 600 or 650 Elo - but I'm not sure, and it would take me too long to find out.
And if I got there, I would want to stop playing rated games so I could just keep myself parked at 650 :)
Well, maybe I would try for 700. but if I hit 700, I would definitely stop. Just like in poker, better to quit while on an upswing.
Of course, I got tired of grinding poker too. No game is fun when it becomes a grind.
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Corvus Mortis
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by Corvus Mortis »

HappyMeaI wrote: 14 June 2025, 23:24 (1) Most of this is nonsense. I’m not sure where you’re pulling this 84% stat from.
It is literally posted in every players' BGA profile. Just click on a player, click XP, and you will see their win rate in every game.
There are sprinkles of gamesmanship, but this isn’t chess.
No one is saying it is. You're the one rated 200 Elo below the top players and saying the game has a low skill cap / is a simple formula. If true, why is your win rate 20ppts lower than others'? Per the Elo formula, the top players are beating you 75-80% of the time, which should not be happening if it was such an easy game of calculation like you say.
The best player will not win all the time, certainly not even close to 84%.
And yet my win rate is 84% and I'm not alone. Aspirin, Fltr, Kulikk, etc. all above 80%.
When you have a table full of similar “elo” players, the smallest edges are washed out by the short term variance, which also deludes players into establishing somewhat of a hierarchy among themselves based on who is running the best. I can see this happening right here in these forums.
A 200+ Elo difference is not similar. The majority of the BGA leaderboard is the same players who have dominated the leaderboard on Steam for years. It's not short-term spikes, but rather people who have featured in the top players for an extremely long period of time.
As for AI/Mars-U losing all the time, and you being a big fan of stats. Didn’t someone earlier in the AI thread reference some HU data that shows both of those cards having a 90% win rate? So no, they do not lose all the time.
There indeed was data, which showed that AI Central didn't even feature among the top cards and is below multiple other science draw cards in terms of win rate. Many of the cards on that list had 80% win rates because it is game data from a player who has 80%+ win rates on average (which you claim is impossible) over the course of thousands of games.
(2)
I’ll take your word for it, but trust me there are players on here that do.
Yes, and they generally don't rise that high in the ratings.
(3)
You cannot use this argument of probabilities against me and be immune to it yourself, that is fallacious. It’s always about improving and playing better, but volume is the most important factor. That is why the top 10 spots are constantly fluctuating. Thoth hasn’t been playing, so he’s not even in the top 10 anymore. I’m not sure the W/R stat on a profile page is very accurate. Doesn’t it include all games and not just HU? I’ve also seen 110% winrates which don’t make sense either. So while 80-85% is very good, I think 61% is also quite good and probably includes a lot of fluff in there.
How am I saying I'm immune to it? I am just quoting you statistics. All of my games are heads up, so mine is purely a win rate in 2p games. Thoth is not "not playing", he's just lost many games in short succession, which happens in a game with variance. At one point he had won 30 games in a row. That's what probabilities look like. If you win 80-85% of your games, you're going to go on losing streaks and on winning ones. But over the long run you're going to be rated higher than someone with a much lower win rate. The players atop the leaderboard are not the people with the most games.

Like Rook, I'd happily play as many games as you'd like. Let's see what the coin flip looks like between us.
FrankJones
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Re: Asteroid Mining Consortium

Post by FrankJones »

I would be curious to play a 700 ELo player, friendly mode (I won't ask someone to risk Elo when I think my 500 ELo might understate my ability).

If any 700 Elo player is willing to play me and give tips during or after the game, I think that would be helpful to me. I don't doubt there may be things the top players do differently from a strategic standpoint, but It's difficult for me to see these things when I play.

I should add a stipulation that I believe preludes and colonies dramatically add to the variance and increase the likelihood that the better player loses in a single game or short series of games.
Last edited by FrankJones on 15 June 2025, 16:15, edited 1 time in total.
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