Is this game too difficult?

[cybrweez]

Played a solo game, it does feel easier. No trading of cards (symbols) is huge. Not much of a loss that Frodo/Same can only take 1 action ever, since they get that action with each of other 4 characters. I lost b/c of rolling on last 2 "searches" (1 travel search, with 3 rerolls still lost 1 hope and then final objective, 4 hope left and rolled 4 hits :/ ). It helped that early I didn't get many ring cards so I could handle objectives and conquer Isengard quickly. Preparing is harder so discarding cards is more likely but since it's just one hand of cards I'll take it. But still, losing bc of rolls, and lack of stealth (I only used it for traveling yet still didn't have enough through Mordor) kinda stinks. One difference is I could've used Friendship to bump up Hope rather than mustering, that might've made the difference (assuming the mustered troops didn't prevent losing a haven).

[Remkar]

I want to disagree with both extreme views. The average player wants to play a game on the easiest difficulty level and have a reasonable chance of winning. It is not about the individual player skill or hyperbole, but suggesting changes to either rules or hints, so it follows game theory better.

This game is strongly influenced by both luck and strategy. It is not correct to say that 100% can be won with the right strategy. There are combinations of black cards than can wipe 4 to 6 hope out in one turn if you have run out of the right kind of counters.

If the game is improved before release, which I am sure is the reason it has been put on BGA before physical release, then rather than being hyperbole, the end product could be better than predicted. I am siding with those who have tried the game and reported that it is too difficult for the average player to manage resources across huge geographic distance barriers.

Yes Arwen helps, but I still lost my last game when I got double searched just before the last objective. Partly because I played the Eagles card on Frodo and Sam, partly because I had used so many friendship cards against early random searches, and partly because I got random searched immediately after playing the Eagles card.

Since this evolved from Pandemic, though, I think expecting casual gamers to walk in and have a high chance of winning when they start playing shouldn't be expected. Pandemic requires efficient play and has a chance for MUCH more brutal starts than this game.

And I don't believe this is on BGA in a testing capacity. It is here in an advertising capacity. The game had already been made available for sale in final form at some board game conventions and is currently available for pre-order.

But, after about 20 plays, I feel like my previous guestimations on win percentages weren't too far off (maybe they were a little high, we'll see as I play more and get better). I've been playing pretty much exclusively single player, standard difficulty, random characters, and I'd say my overall expected win rate (adjusted for some rules misunderstandings and accidental plays I couldn't undo, etc ) is mid 80%. I assume as I get better, that could very well break into the 90s.

I'm having a lot of fun working out how to play better, and I'm looking forward to the added goals, characters, and difficulties that come with the physical game, and it will likely be a day 1 purchase for me.

[danielvictor]

We played a turn-based game effectively in real-time for about 3 1/2 hours,with close co-operation,after which we went to actual turn-based. We still co-operated closely, and had two groups of characters-plus-elves,with the one including Frodo by the borders of Mordor and close to Mount Doom . We were -up to two-or three of the five rings needed,I think. There were a couple of large groups of Nasgul.We had fulfilled four of our five objectives.
Suddenly,there were two large battles.We won the first,but lost the second,causing us to lose our three remaining hope,and thus the game.
The fact that you can't really afford to lose even one battle [the forces of evil can] makes the game pretty difficult in my opinion. You need to really beef up all major groups of characters,and watch out for large groups of enemies.

[Remkar]

We played a turn-based game effectively in real-time for about 3 1/2 hours,with close co-operation,after which we went to actual turn-based. We still co-operated closely, and had two groups of characters-plus-elves,with the one including Frodo by the borders of Mordor and close to Mount Doom . We were -up to two-or three of the five rings needed,I think. There were a couple of large groups of Nasgul.We had fulfilled four of our five objectives.
Suddenly,there were two large battles.We won the first,but lost the second,causing us to lose our three remaining hope,and thus the game.
The fact that you can't really afford to lose even one battle [the forces of evil can] makes the game pretty difficult in my opinion. You need to really beef up all major groups of characters,and watch out for large groups of enemies.

I lose multiple battles pretty much every time I play, but still win overall usually. I think it's more about a good early game and knowing how to set up a good defense for later

I tried to watch your replay, but it kept freezing up and reloading on the 5th player's turn (outside of solo play, replays don't seem to work well for this game). It looks like you are all pretty much beginners, so it's to be expected, but almost all of your first turns ranged from bad to sorta ok. I think as you get a few games under your belt, you'll have better starts and can set yourself up to not have a single battle lost turn the tide so abruptly later in the game.

[danielvictor]

Thanks for trying to help ! What sort of things were we doing wrong ?

[Remkar]

Thanks for trying to help ! What sort of things were we doing wrong ?

Sure, and I'm definitely not claiming to be an expert, so if other people see better moves or want to critique my thoughts, please do! I also typically play solo, I think I only have 2-3 non-solo hot seats games played.

Looking at the starting info for your game, I look at the initial enemy cards.
Things I noted:
-more red banners (7 to 4), so expect more troop movement than build-up, which means you may need to prioritize some defensive positioning in the early game.
-Helm's Deep will need defending (3 cards can help the enemy troops head there)
-Grey Havens will likely get hit eventually through Dol Amroth
-Mirkwood/Dale Havens will eventually be at risk (will be a little slower, but large troop count attacking)
-Minas Tirith/Rivendell/Lorien/Shire look safe for a while

Then, looking at your character pairings:
-Frodo/Sam will typically just be taking the single move action with this pairing (hopefully prepping, or doing single focused moves to avoid the eye) leaving
Eowyn to muster and help take Isengard/Defend Helm's Deep in the early game
-Merry/Pippen will usually take 1 action to create friendship (except possibly 1 early move to help complete the first objective card if necessary) leaving
Aragorn to either help move Frodo/Same more safely or to help deal with enemy troops
-Arwen will often take the 4 actions in this pairing in the early game if there are enough troops to muster for free, and cards to prep (and send troops out). Otherwise, she should hang in Rivendell or nearby to help complete goal 1, likely with Merry/Pippen. Gandalf will probably get used when Arwen doesn't have much to do, but otherwise he can make join another character to help them move around (or can slowly move elves from Rivendell to drop in defensive locations)
-Gimli/Boromir is an interesting pair. Gimli creating free valor for Boromir to capture enemy strongholds is fantastic. You'll eventually want Gimli to get a turn or 2 of mustering in to defend the NE, but Boromir is probably going to be the 4 action half of this pair most of the time in the early game so he can help shore up Gondor and maybe capture Umbar if the opportunity presents.
-Legolas will likely just be creating stealth tokens early while Eomer takes the 4 actions to help take Isengard, but eventuall, Legolas will probably take a turn or turn to take and drop off Gimli's dwarves in devensive positions in the NE once Gimli gets a turn of mustering in.

Events wise, you drew into LOTS of events which can give you some options. But I'll step through your first turns now and talk about what I would do and then look at what you guys chose.

Unfortunately, I'll have to come back to this, as I just ran out of free time! I'll return, though, but might not be until tomorrow, sorry!

[danielvictor]

Thanks !

[Remkar]

Thanks for trying to help ! What sort of things were we doing wrong ?

Ok, turn 1: Sam/Frodo and Eowyn.
I would use Eowyn for 4 actions.
Definitely some mustering needed, and I think the best turn is probably to:
1) muster
2) muster
3) move to Helm's Deep with 3 troops
4) move to Fords of Isen with 1 troop
With no Nazgul in Rohan, 3 troops in Helm's Deep will be enough to protect it, and getting a troop to Isen could be severely damaging to the Isengard force if it moves South (it will roll 3 dice, likely killing your 1 troop in Isen, but likely losing 2 troops in the process. Eowyn can then muster more troops in Isen next turn and either attack where she is, move to Isengard, or retreat to Helm's Deep depending on the board situation.
As for Frodo/Sam, this depends heavily on how you decide to protect Frodo. You do not want to leave Frodo with the Eye if you can help it.
Moving him 4 isn't a good idea because you really want those 4 actions for Eowyn, so I'd think about the Eye situation.
Options to pull the eye away:
-take Eowin to Isengard to battle (not a good idea, need her to muster more)
-Have Aragorn grab the elf from Rivendell and fight in Dunland (decent option, although if Dunland troop moves West, this won't work (or if you get Skies Darken in first draw)
-Use Elven Cloaks and Rope (no searches) to move Frodo to Aragorn, then Frodo can move WITH Aragorn to Rivendell facing a single search in a Haven with Aragorn's ability allowing a reroll makes it unlikely you lose hope)
-Use Council of Elrond to pull Frodo (and potentially others) to Rivendell
-Use Palantir to pull Eye (probably to Gimli)
-Plan to have Aragorn take Frodo to Dol Amroth (I like this one, but it may delay completing objective 1)
Honestly not sure which is the best. I'd probably save the Palantir, though, since that is more versatile, and choose between Elrond/Elven Cloaks/Aragorn to Dol Amroth).
So, I think I probably play Council of Elrond here since the other 2 events are more versatile, and you are going to want to get Merry/Pippen to Rivendell also most likely for Objective 1. I think I pull Frodo/Sam, Merry/Pippen, Aragorn (since he can help Frodo move), and maybe Gandalf (since he can then start moving the elves that Arwen musters.
I would then probably leave Frodo put, although moving him to Hollin (with Aragorn in tow) could be useful, so I wouldn't object to that either.

Alright, stepping through the first turn in your game... looks like:
Eowyn just builds up troops and hangs in Helm's Deep (I'd say that that is her 2nd best move, but I like my move better).
No event played to get Frodo out of danger, which probably isn't great.

The Draw:
Skies Darken - you guys pay 2 hope for not moving Frodo to safety with Council of Elrond (or Elven Cloaks)
Threat to Dol Umrath (and Grey Havens increases) with that troop movement

Have to run again, I'll look at the next turn later.

[danielvictor]

Thanks again !

[Remkar]

Thanks again !

NP, sorry I'm slow, though. Free time is limited this week for me, and it's annoying to do replays on my phone.

Looking ahead to turn 2 with Merry and Aragorn.
In my version of turn 1, they are both in Rivendell, but given your setup here, I probably get the eye away from Frodo in case there is a search.
Best options are probably:
-an Event (elven rope to move Frodo to Aragorn), or Elrond Council like I recommended on turn 1.
If you go this route, I'd probably say Elven Council (since you likely want Merry there anyway, and it lets you save Elven Ropes for later since it's more versatile).
I'd pull Merry, Frodo, Aragorn (and maybe Gandalf, although he shouldn't hang around up there for long)
If you go that route, you'd want to leave Merry in Rivendell to build friendship for Objective 1, and Aragorn likely wouldn't move farther than Hollin with Frodo, so might be smart to actually move Aragorn before the event and have him move the useless dwarf in Ered Lun to the Shire to protect that Haven. Then Merry just makes Friendship with the single action.
-Other alternative if you want to hold off on an event would be to move Aragorn to Rivendell, grab the elf, and go fight in Dunland, that will draw the eye.

Ok, playing through your turn it looks like you made friendship, but wasted the other 4 actions of Aragorn (unless I missed something on the replay).

Shadow Cards...
There comes the beginning of the threat to Grey Havens through Dol Amroth I mentioned in my first post, and the threat to Helm's Deep from Isengard (which could have been crippled with my move of playing Eowyn in the Fords with a troop).

Turn 3 brings us to Arwen/Gandalf.
Arwen has no cards to prep, and can only muster 2 elves at most, so probably best to do a single action this turn and muster once while Gandalf:
-goes to Rivendell
-takes both elves to Hollin
-Battles (and hopefully wins)
-Moves to Tharb maybe with whatever elves survived with plans to leave one there and drop the other in Dunland for defense (if both survived)

Ok, playing through your group's moves...
Ok, now you Council of Elrond, but it's kind of late. Would have more helpful earlier.
Also, you pull Gimli, but that's a mistake. You want him mustering dwarves in the NE.
You also use Arwen's counsel ability to take a sword card from Eowin/Frodo. Might be better to take a ring from Merry/Aragorn to give to Frodo next turn, though? Eowin may want that sword to help take Isengard.
Gandalf moves with the elves, which is fine, though.

Shadow cards:
Big group marching towards the Dale, but no Gimli there to muster for an easy defense.
Isengard reinforcement, which is fine.

I'll try to come back and look at the last 2 turns of the first round tomorrow.