Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

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a_mandible
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Joined: 09 June 2014, 19:01

Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by a_mandible »

Babyrhinorainbows wrote:Tangential other concern: you guys need to enforce time limits in these kinds of tournaments. If a player runs out of time they should lose the game immediately. In a competitive environment the timer is an important resource. The way it works now can also stall the tournament from progressing if several players are really slow.
I agree. Or perhaps a penalty (-1 point per minute or fraction of a minute over time). But making a slow player's opponent be the one who enforces a timer introduces social pressure not to do it, and it feels silly to have tournament results decided by how someone feels about social pressure.

That's not to say I'd object to a longer timer; I think 30 minutes per player is about right, but it could be 10 minutes or 2 hours and I'd still play-- just pick something and stick to it. The system already enforces other tournament choices of game mode (e.g. it mandates random selection, instead of counting on players to choose 'random selection' because they're supposed to); why doesn't it enforce the timer?
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RogueM
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by RogueM »

I lost my place in the next chapter of this charade by being disqualified for not making a last pointless move, at 8-2 in my favour, so I'm not sure what we are referring of? are we talking about a per move time limit, isn't that already 5 mins? Either way, if a player run out of time, then a SENSIBLE penalty should apply, like skipping his move, or as you suggest a -1 to score.

These things should have been worked out BEFORE such an event though, and I naively thought the June testing was for that purposes, but I guess it was just to see if the universe would collapse or something right?
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hi,

Thank you for participating to this tournament.

Yes we obviously had to reformat the entire tournament. Originally we planned to qualify the first 20 players of each series, but with 25-30 players by series this was totally pointless.

We choose to qualify the first 6 players to make sure that players who won all their 3 matches would be 100% sure to be qualified, plus the best players who won only 2 matches.

There has been a problem with the timer but it has been immediately fixed as soon as we were warned.

About Swiss System: each tournament system has its own defects, but this one is pretty efficient. Again: all players that won all their matches were qualified. If you have been eliminated, the reason is you lost a match you should have won, not the Swiss System :)

This is the second official tournament hosted by BGA. There are certainly things to improve so thanks for your feedback.

Cheers,
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Babyrhinorainbows
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by Babyrhinorainbows »

How many are qualified for the finals?
Babari
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Joined: 23 July 2015, 22:55

Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by Babari »

Babyrhinorainbows wrote:How many are qualified for the finals?
4
sourisdudesert wrote:About Swiss System: each tournament system has its own defects, but this one is pretty efficient. Again: all players that won all their matches were qualified. If you have been eliminated, the reason is you lost a match you should have won, not the Swiss System :)
J'apprécie et suis reconnaissant de ce que l'équipe BGA & toi faites pour le jeu de société. À ce titre, certaines critiques provenant de joueurs un chouia 'égocentrés' sont pour le moins irrespectueuses et inutilement blessantes.

Maintenant, autant te dire que sur ce tournoi je suis en désaccord. S'il est raté, ce n'est non pas à cause du nombre de participants (120-150 joueurs) mais bien à cause du format choisi. Si vous voulez que trois rondes suisses suffisent à un classement, vous devez drastiquement diminuer le nombre de joueurs par poule (8j). Ce n'est certes pas optimal - l'idéal étant d'augmenter le nombre de rondes - mais cela reste beaucoup mieux que de couper à la hache au 1/5 ;) sur des critères de départage insensés (faute de rondes).

Si tu veux un exemple, prends ma troisième partie serrée contre Mr A Crowley : 6-6, je gagne au départage du nombre de pièces promues. À un moment donné, mon adversaire a failli rompre l'équilibre de son côté. Admettons qu'il l'ait emporté. Et bien, il aurait été second (et non 10e)... et j'aurais été 4e (et non second). Pourquoi ? Tout simplement car j'ai affronté Hairry (actuel 4e) et que Mr A Crowley a apparemment gagné sa première rencontre par forfait... ce qui lui interdit avant même d'avoir joué toute chance de départage (avec au passage une magnifique moyenne des adversaires rencontrés de 1141).

Une critique à ce propos : le tournoi est (quasi-)illisible rétroactivement. La liste des rencontres est une bonne chose, mais elle devrait être améliorée avec une chronologie (rondes 1, 2, 3, ...). Pourquoi étions-nous 21 ? Timpiece a-t-il abandonné ? Comment ?

Là, on a pris ceux qui gagnaient toutes leurs rondes (manquait plus que le contraire et vous aviez quelques 'furieux' sur votre perron le lendemain :mrgreen: ) plus la loterie pour complément. Le système suisse n'est pas fait pour ça. Dans le cas présent on n'a pas produit un classement, mais des pâtés de joueurs.

Pour une illustration de la question, voir page 5 de ce document : http://www.fvde.ch/arbitrage/dt2/doc/Li ... itre_2.pdf
Les échecs sont friandes de ces systèmes mathématiques, et des matheux sont enchantés d'en proposer de nouveaux ou de théoriser dans ce domaine. La littérature à ce sujet ne manque pas. Pour revenir à nous moutons, je pense que vous avez suffisamment de compétiteurs et/ou matheux parmi vos joueurs pour les consulter a priori. Soit que vous leur proposiez un système et ils le critiqueront, soit qu'ils vous en proposeront différents et vous ferez votre choix. Plus la question de l'exhaustivité des règles : information parfaite / timer / anticipation des litiges.

Sympathies ludiques,
Babari
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MeatAndBreath
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by MeatAndBreath »

sourisdudesert wrote: About Swiss System: each tournament system has its own defects, but this one is pretty efficient. Again: all players that won all their matches were qualified. If you have been eliminated, the reason is you lost a match you should have won, not the Swiss System :)
Or I won it and the tournament module counted it as a draw, as happened on my first match. (Though, to be fair, after losing my 3rd match by one piece on the second tiebreaker, I suppose I "lost a match I should have won" and wouldn't have advanced, anyway.)
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Grey Lord
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by Grey Lord »

Few remarks for BGA

Swiss system with the time limit is ideal for any game tournament and I hope there will be more in future. Maybe even for more than 2 players games ;)

Bad is that the timer needs to sort out some bugs and swiss system with so few round and a small part of players advancing to next tournament is the same as the Single-Elimination with prize draw a few lucky losers who lost only in last round and have succesfull oponents. :D

Small warning :!: If only 4 players in final it looks like most fair Round-robin tournament. But if you keep your tiebreakers (oponents points and ELO on BGA) and noone will win all 3 games, winer will be the one with lowest ELO. If you are thinking about mutual match it will not works in case of 2-2-2-0 wins situation.
:oops: I am writing here such obvious things because you should clear used mechanism in rules at least before final.

Thank you for the tournament and wish you good luck with work you are doing here
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Locu
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by Locu »

Grey Lord wrote:Few remarks for BGA

Swiss system with the time limit is ideal for any game tournament and I hope there will be more in future. Maybe even for more than 2 players games ;)

Bad is that the timer needs to sort out some bugs and swiss system with so few round and a small part of players advancing to next tournament is the same as the Single-Elimination with prize draw a few lucky losers who lost only in last round and have succesfull oponents. :D
I agree and that the timer needs to work automatically in those tournaments. I consider time as a resource that also has to be managed and there's no way that my opponent in a chess tournament will say: hey , you ran out of time, but I let you make your moves, while I feel bad if I enforce a loss in a board game that way.
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RogueM
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by RogueM »

sourisdudesert wrote:We choose to qualify the first 6 players to make sure that players who won all their 3 matches would be 100% sure to be qualified, plus the best players who won only 2 matches.
no, you mean to say: "so that all players who won their 3 matches as well as those who played only 2 and that thanks to our half arsed system where considered to be 'better' players than others that rank on this site consistently high but faced another top dog."

... I'm not one of them (only a victim of your server instability) but I feel bad for other people I face regularly outside of tournament and that are clearly better players but were not given a fair chance to prove it.

But hey, I'm OK with this flawed system, as long as you refund my premium subscription to this site... you see I'd like to invest this money in another physical copy of the game and support CGE who made a great game, and not one of their partner who clearly have no qualm in damaging their reputation.
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Babyrhinorainbows
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Re: Tash-Kalar official CGE World series 2015

Post by Babyrhinorainbows »

:geek: :ugeek: :| :roll: :idea: :arrow: :|

A couple weeks is too long to be fuming about losing a game to someone you consider inferior to yourself...did he run over your dog too?

Edit: do you play rocket league? I think I played you today :D
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