PSA: Industrial center

[FrankJones]

If it is gen 2, and the builder milestone is in play, it's not worth it to activate industrial center?

If I have Mine in my hand gen 1, but no steel to pay for it, should I not be playing it?

[jaymc1130]

If it is gen 2, and the builder milestone is in play, it's not worth it to activate industrial center?

If I have Mine in my hand gen 1, but no steel to pay for it, should I not be playing it?

It really all depends on the context of the game state.

But just the same I feel like the games where I activate industrial center at least once account for maybe only 15-20% of the games in which I play it. 14 cash (3 to keep, 4 to play, 7 to activate) for a steel prod (a type of prod worth less than its face value of 2 credits) sounds like not a great deal. Keep in mind we already know that Hackers never pays for its original investment cost when played gen 1 in an 11 gen 2p game when inflation is accounted for and that was 13 credits. Usually activating industrial center at all is a losing money proposition, and that costs points.

Much easier to generate a profit by playing as a teleport for 4 cash back and two plants since you get an immediate 10ish credits of value out of a 7 credit investment and often an extra tempo (conversion) that can rebate some more value, plus the denial of a point if opponent could fill his/her city. A 3ish point net swing for 7 cash is a decent deal.

[jaymc1130]

I'd bet that I'm averaging below 1 use of action per game after playing industrial

Way, way, way below.

[FrankJones]

If it is gen 2, and the builder milestone is in play, it's not worth it to activate industrial center?

If I have Mine in my hand gen 1, but no steel to pay for it, should I not be playing it?

It really all depends on the context of the game state.

But just the same I feel like the games where I activate industrial center at least once account for maybe only 15-20% of the games in which I play it. 14 cash (3 to keep, 4 to play, 7 to activate) for a steel prod (a type of prod worth less than its face value of 2 credits) sounds like not a great deal. Keep in mind we already know that Hackers never pays for its original investment cost when played gen 1 in an 11 gen 2p game when inflation is accounted for and that was 13 credits. Usually activating industrial center at all is a losing money proposition, and that costs points.

I agree that playing it (and paying 14) merely for the purpose of increasing steel production makes little sense. Typically, when it is played though, it is placed next to at least one ocean and gains a placement bonus, making the cost less than 7. Even as a blocking tile, I doubt very many players are paying the full 7 MC to play it. Or maybe they play it adjacent to someone's city to swipe the card-spot, a great value based on the value of a random card draw that is typically used in these forums. That makes it nearly a free play.

The fact that it is activated, on average, a low number of times is a result of it often being played late in the game. If it is played in the early game in a situation in which it makes sense to play it solely for the blocking tile and placement bonus, and the base map is in play,
I don't see why anyone would pass up paying 7 MC to increase steel production. Surely there are building cards that are intended to be played.

[jaymc1130]

I don't see why anyone would pass up paying 7 MC to increase steel production.

Because it usually doesn’t return its original investment cost. Steel is worth about 1.75 credits. Just the activation is 18ish credits of end game value and while you can definitely recoup the value by game’s end when activating it gen 1 you won’t be able to realize that profit until the final 2-3 gens of the game (and then only if you have steel targets that score). So in the interim for 7-8 gens you’re just down cash and that can have some pretty massive opportunity costs if it delays a priority play (which it often will).

Definitely you can and should activate industrial center early in games at times, but you really want to be certain when you do it that it’s not going to wind up being a net negative play based on the specifics of the game state.

[FrankJones]

Fair enough; but if I am activating it, most likely it is because I intend to use the steel on building cards that I would otherwise be paying cash for, in which case it seems reasonable to value the steel, in that circumstance, at 2 MC rather than 1.75. And, of course, it also depends on the playability of our cards. If there isn't much to do except pass with money, the activation becomes more appealing.

[StrandedKnight]

I looked at some data I have from the current Arena season. Top players on average activate Industrial Center 0.15-0.2 times after playing it.

[rambling_coherently]

I looked at some data I have from the current Arena season. Top players on average activate Industrial Center 0.15-0.2 times after playing it.

Yeah, that seems accurate with the high level players responding in here (not me, I'm trash)

[dessp7]

Keep in mind we already know that Hackers never pays for its original investment cost when played gen 1 in an 11 gen 2p game when inflation is accounted for and that was 13 credits.

Can you give more details here? why hackers bad? Ofc we take in account only the case when you have spare energy to pay for it (not using SP to do that)

[jaymc1130]

Can you give more details here? why hackers bad?

The baseline evaluation for Hackers in terms of scoring efficiency is quite poor. 3 to keep, 3 to play, 11 for sp power. That’s 17 credits, or 42ish end game value credits assuming gen 1 of an 11 gen 2p game. Roughly 6 points of purchasing power at either stage of the game. For that investment you get back 33ish credits in end game value over the course of the game, a negative vp, and a lost heat bump for a net loss of 4ish points compared to the expected value of those 17 credits in gen 1. This is really awful. Even with efficient power that evaluation is 13 gen 1 credits with 33ish end value returning 33ish by game’s end scoring 2 net less points than expected due to lost heat bump and the negative vp. This is still pretty bad. We need truly free power or truly free Hackers for this to be profitable.

Hackers can still be a play, like any niche card, but you ought to look at the card like it says “-5 vp” on it rather than the -1 it displays in general and only be willing to play it when you know it will be crippling for an opponent AND it comes at basically no up front investment cost in a game you need to ensure goes long for your optimal scoring.