TM is not a best 2Players game :( (nt)

[Ingwe111]

.

[dessp7]

and still it is addictive

[rambling_coherently]

2P is easily the most competitive format, which Arena is (or should be). Whether it's the most enjoyable format, for you or others, is a different question.

[HappyMeaI]

2P format is the most luck-based. 3p is what everyone says the “sweet spot” is, but 4p is suppose to be what the developers have aimed to balance the game around the most.

This is why cards like AI central or Mars-U are broken in HU, weaker but still viable in 3p, and nearly unplayable in 4p. Science builds unequivocally dominate in HU but engines don’t get to fully flourish in 4p games, whereas in 3p you get more of the balance with the prosper.

Again, and as long as you play high volume and have a 70% W/R, in HU play your ELO will dominate. Ofc because of how insane variance is, players will go hundreds of games in HU running at a variety of deviations above n below the breakeven line. The edges in this game at the high levels are minuscule.

[Mars321]

2P format is the most luck-based. 3p is what everyone says the “sweet spot” is, but 4p is suppose to be what the developers have aimed to balance the game around the most.

This is why cards like AI central or Mars-U are broken in HU, weaker but still viable in 3p, and nearly unplayable in 4p. Science builds unequivocally dominate in HU but engines don’t get to fully flourish in 4p games, whereas in 3p you get more of the balance with the prosper.

Again, and as long as you play high volume and have a 70% W/R, in HU play your ELO will dominate. Ofc because of how insane variance is, players will go hundreds of games in HU running at a variety of deviations above n below the breakeven line. The edges in this game at the high levels are minuscule.

This is noticeably wrong. It’s pretty hard to argue against 5p being the most luck based version of the game. In 5p games, the game usually ends in 6 generations and getting tharsis or credicor or getting both of demios and Gia is often enough to win. Whoever randomly gets one of a few high impact cards just does much better than the others. 4p is also noticeably high luck level. Engine becomes worse at higher player counts, so you don’t get mars u -5 ai combos but there are plenty of 5p hands that just can’t do anything. The key misconception here is that Lucky hands are not limited to engine hands. I think it’s fairly clear that 2p is the least luck based format but u could maybe argue for 3p if all 3 players are skilled and one player isn’t straight up king making unwittingly(which is the more common case on Bga). But it’s fairly noticeable that 5 and 4 player are far more luck based.

Yes there will occasionally be 2p games where someone gets the engine nuts (also there will be 2p games where someone gets the rush nuts, as engine is not necessarily the only way to win at 2p) but even in spite of this it is severely less luck dependent than 4 or 5 p.

[Kulikk]

I think that the difference in elo required to win an arena speaks volumes about the skill ceiling difference between 2p and 3p against random opponents

[HappyMeaI]

There is a bit of nuance among good players in their games, but not enough to make the claim that you need to be “700+” elo to win an arena and you couldn’t if you were 300. I think literally anyone can play this game 24/7, improve their game every day, increase their elo to the top 10% and win arena if it’s all they commit their time to in a single season. The only limiting factor is time imo.

[HappyMeaI]

2P format is the most luck-based. 3p is what everyone says the “sweet spot” is, but 4p is suppose to be what the developers have aimed to balance the game around the most.

This is why cards like AI central or Mars-U are broken in HU, weaker but still viable in 3p, and nearly unplayable in 4p. Science builds unequivocally dominate in HU but engines don’t get to fully flourish in 4p games, whereas in 3p you get more of the balance with the prosper.

Again, and as long as you play high volume and have a 70% W/R, in HU play your ELO will dominate. Ofc because of how insane variance is, players will go hundreds of games in HU running at a variety of deviations above n below the breakeven line. The edges in this game at the high levels are minuscule.

This is noticeably wrong. It’s pretty hard to argue against 5p being the most luck based version of the game. In 5p games, the game usually ends in 6 generations and getting tharsis or credicor or getting both of demios and Gia is often enough to win. Whoever randomly gets one of a few high impact cards just does much better than the others. 4p is also noticeably high luck level. Engine becomes worse at higher player counts, so you don’t get mars u -5 ai combos but there are plenty of 5p hands that just can’t do anything. The key misconception here is that Lucky hands are not limited to engine hands. I think it’s fairly clear that 2p is the least luck based format but u could maybe argue for 3p if all 3 players are skilled and one player isn’t straight up king making unwittingly(which is the more common case on Bga). But it’s fairly noticeable that 5 and 4 player are far more luck based.

Yes there will occasionally be 2p games where someone gets the engine nuts (also there will be 2p games where someone gets the rush nuts, as engine is not necessarily the only way to win at 2p) but even in spite of this it is severely less luck dependent than 4 or 5 p.

You’re right. I didn’t mean to say it is most luck-based, but imbalanced. It’s a high variance card game where if one player in similar level to another gets AI Central or Mars U the game is already over 95% of the time, unless the player who gets AI makes a lot of blunders and the skill gap is huge. These cards are more balanced in 3p / 4p games. Ofc in 3p+ there are more variables affecting outcome, and you have the most control over the game in 2p. There’s nuance in 3p / 4p games as well. They don’t just play themselves.

[Kulikk]

There is a bit of nuance among good players in their games, but not enough to make the claim that you need to be “700+” elo to win an arena and you couldn’t if you were 300. I think literally anyone can play this game 24/7, improve their game every day, increase their elo to the top 10% and win arena if it’s all they commit their time to in a single season. The only limiting factor is time imo.

I meant the arena elo required to win. Obviously if there is any luck involved in the game literally anyone could go on a extremely lucky streak but that's the case for any game with any element of luck in it so it doesn't say much. I think you are severely underestimating the skill cap in tfm, I'm sure that without prelude corps the winning arena elo would be easily over 2.2k. At this point you are expected to win 97% of your games against 1600 opponents. I can also assure you that there is a noticable difference in skill between people you'd consider top players (I'm speaking about lets say 10th v 1st player in the world)

[Kulikk]

On the other note, you are extremely overrating ai, it's not even close to being one of the best cards