On openings

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Kaepo
Posts: 44
Joined: 07 March 2023, 12:59

On openings

Post by Kaepo »

Let's start the first real thread on openings in boop. I suggest we first agree on a notation.

Notation

I use a classic Chess notation adapted to boop. Columns go from a to f, rows from 1 to 6. The top left square is a6, the bottom left is a1, the bottom right is f1. Playing a kitten on the top left square is move 'a6' (in lower-case), playing a cat at the same position is move 'A6' (upper-case).


The regular opening

Since openings in boop. are symmetric, we can consider the first move to always be c4.

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Playing d4 or c3 is quite bad, boop. players realize that quite quickly. The classic answer to c4 is then to play diagonally at d3.

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Many beginners do the mistake to play either d4 or c3, which lead to a favorable position for Orange (with one exception, as we will see with the next opening). Thus, the classic opening starts with move e4 or c2.

Let's consider c2. The classic exchange is then c4, d4, d3.
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This opening is fairly balanced, with maybe a slight advantage for Orange, with a better central position.


The Beginner opening (followed by the Maleone opening)

After c4, d3, beginners often do a mistake with d4 or c3. Let's consider d4. The natural sequence is then c4 to separate Gray kittens, c3 to separate Orange kittens, then d3, to again separate Gray kittens. Orange has a good "double-knight-jump" shape.

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However, Gray's bad second move at d4 can be turned into a good move if the sequence above is followed by f2, to boop out the Orange kitten. This full sequence is what I call a Maleone opening, since I noticed when I started the game that the player Maleone liked this sequence.

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The LargoLaGrande opening

After c4, d3, LargoLaGrande likes playing c4 again. Orange's answer can be either c3/d4 (symmetric moves), or b5. I prefer b5, so I will detail this one. Feel free to comment other Orange's answers. :)

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The sequence is then c4 (for the third time in a row!), broken with c3/d4.

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One possible answer for Gray is to kick out Orange's kitten with a5, making a threat at c3-d2. Orange can simply break that with d3.

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The b4 opening

Finally, I would like to finish with the b4 opening. Like the name indicates, it starts with the b4 move.

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The idea of this opening is to quickly gain control of the center. As we can see with other openings, usually, when we open the game by playing at the center, we lose it.

It is temping to push on the border that lonely Gray kitten. Usual Orange's answer is then either c4 or c3. Let's consider c4 first. Gray with reply with d3.
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A common mistake is to boop out the Gray kitten on the border with b3. That is exactly what Gray hopes, actually, so Gray can push away with the central move c4 both Orange kittens on the border, very far from each other, and let the opportunity to play again at the center on Gray's next turn.

Orange players who do not make this mistake usually play d4 or event better, e4. Let's analyze d4 first. Then Gray at c4 to separate, Orange at c3 for the same reason, and we finish with a double-knight-jump shape for Gray with d3.

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You could ask "Okay, so what about a Maleone move now with f2?" Sure, it's possible, but the situation is not exactly the same as for the Beginner opening, with an heavier presence of Gray on the center-left of the board. The three remaining Gray kittens at a4, c5 and d3 are working well together.

Now, let's see a better Orange response for the fourth move, with e4. Gray answer can be c4 (and I like this one, actually), and then it continues with either c3 d3, going toward a kind of classic opening, or with b3 d3, putting Gray in a comfortable position in the center, with three kittens separated by a simple jump. Sorry, I didn't make screeshots for these sequences.

So let's consider Gray to answer with d4 instead. Thus c3, then d3. Again, a double-knight-jump shape for Gray, but less avantageous, with more opportunities for Orange, and a lonely Gray kitten at a4, more far away from the double-knight-jump shape's influence.

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Finally, consider the first Orange move to be c3. A regular exchange can be d3 d4 c4 c3, and then, it's advantageous for Gray to play a Maleone move at b1.

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Another possibility for Orange is to play e4 instead of d4 as a fourth move. Thus Gray must play at d4. It would be a mistake playing at c4 and going toward a kind of Maleone opening. Can you see why?
So e4 d4. Thus, a fair sequence is d3 and break everything with c4.

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And you, do you have variants or other openings to share?
Comments are welcome! Let's talk about boop. openings!
Last edited by Kaepo on 21 June 2025, 00:59, edited 1 time in total.
Ceaseless
Posts: 1299
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: On openings

Post by Ceaseless »

I took a quick look at this for fun, will probably take another look later. Haven't thought about Boop in a while since it's been so inactive.
Kaepo wrote: 20 June 2025, 14:15 Let's start the first real thread on openings in boop. I suggest we first agree on a notation.

I use a classic Chess notation adapted to boop. Columns go from a to f, rows from 1 to 6. The top left square is a6, the bottom left is a1, the bottom right is e1. Playing a kitten on the top left square is move 'a6' (in lower-case), playing a cat at the same position is move 'A6' (upper-case).
Bottom right is f1, e would be the fifth, not sixth, letter of the alphabet.

I like writing my moves in pairs, Gray is first move and Orange is second move, with a comma after Orange's move. I'll insert the move sequence in () for clarity. (c4 d3, c2 c4) for the standard first two pairs of moves. If I'm leading off of a continuation with Orange, I'll have one unpaired move with the comma after it at the start followed by everything else. I might even throw in ... preceding the moves to indicate it's no the starting move. Using the same pair as before, c4 is the common first move, the follow-up is (... d3, c2 c4).

Probably a good idea to mention a way to post images of the board. I don't have one myself, best I could do is post replays with some of these positions.
Kaepo wrote: 20 June 2025, 14:15
Many beginners do the mistake to play either d4 or c3, which lead to a favorable position for Orange (with one exception, as we will see with the next opening). Thus, the classic opening starts with move e4 or c2.

Let's consider e4. The classic exchange is then c4, d4, d3.
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The image is c2 instead of e4 here, isn't it? Functionally identical due to symmetry, but it messes with the notation.
Kaepo wrote: 20 June 2025, 14:15

The LargoLaGrande opening

After c4, d3, LargoLaGrande likes playing c4 again.
That's my opening! :o I wonder if they got it from me or if it's origin with them lies elsewhere. :geek: How do you decide who to name it off of? XD

If you want to dig into that opening, you should be able to find all sorts of examples in my game history, including several high rating samples.
Kaepo
Posts: 44
Joined: 07 March 2023, 12:59

Re: On openings

Post by Kaepo »

Ceaseless wrote: 20 June 2025, 16:43 I took a quick look at this for fun, will probably take another look later. Haven't thought about Boop in a while since it's been so inactive.
Is it? Maybe for real-time games, otherwise, I don't feel there is a lost of dynamism for the game. Some strong players left, but they have been replaced by new strong ones!
Ceaseless wrote: 20 June 2025, 16:43 Bottom right is f1, e would be the fifth, not sixth, letter of the alphabet.
The image is c2 instead of e4 here, isn't it? Functionally identical due to symmetry, but it messes with the notation.
Fixed! Thanks.
Ceaseless wrote: 20 June 2025, 16:43 Probably a good idea to mention a way to post images of the board. I don't have one myself, best I could do is post replays with some of these positions.
Those images are screenshots of BGA. To post them in the forum, look at the BBCode: there is a tag to post images, given their URL. All you have to do is to store images somewhere online.
Ceaseless wrote: 20 June 2025, 16:43 That's my opening! :o I wonder if they got it from me or if it's origin with them lies elsewhere. :geek: How do you decide who to name it off of? XD
Well, I wrote the post, so I decide about the names in my post. :) Largo is a player I know for a moment now on boop., and in turn-based boop. game community, he is clearly the one I identify with that opening.
Ceaseless wrote: 20 June 2025, 16:43 If you want to dig into that opening, you should be able to find all sorts of examples in my game history, including several high rating samples.
I think it is better to directly post here your thoughts and knowledge here! It is more convenient for everyone.
Ceaseless
Posts: 1299
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: On openings

Post by Ceaseless »

Hm, perhaps turn-based was unaffected by the changing times. I'm not a fan of playing an individual game beyond a single sitting, so turn-based and I are unlikely to ever get along. As for images, I don't have a linked screenshot method at the moment, so I might end up using replays. As for naming conventions, I don't think using usernames will be helpful. The users in question are not so famous that you could name an opening after them and someone would recognize it, unlike in Chess where such information is more commonly stored. I personally tend to either name the opening by its moves, or perhaps some more distinguished feature. (LGrande opening might either be c4 d3, c4 or maybe Diagonal Gambit, to represent how seemingly the player diagonally pushes their own piece away to aim for future value).
Kaepo wrote: 20 June 2025, 14:15 However, Gray's bad second move at d4 can be turned into a good move if the sequence above is followed by f2, to boop out the Orange kitten.
I'm not following. If there was a good move in the sequence, how are the previous moves bad?
On an unrelated note, this particular opening outlet has a drawish offer since Orange can replicate the previous board position with e1.
Kaepo
Posts: 44
Joined: 07 March 2023, 12:59

Re: On openings

Post by Kaepo »

Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 04:40 I'm not following. If there was a good move in the sequence, how are the previous moves bad?
The sequence is bad unless you play this last move, that most people, in particular beginners, don't even consider.
Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 04:40 On an unrelated note, this particular opening outlet has a drawish offer since Orange can replicate the previous board position with e1.
Sure. Fortunately, nobody plays like that, unless it is a life and death situation, which is not the case here.
Ceaseless
Posts: 1299
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: On openings

Post by Ceaseless »

Kaepo wrote: 21 June 2025, 06:11
Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 04:40 I'm not following. If there was a good move in the sequence, how are the previous moves bad?
The sequence is bad unless you play this last move, that most people, in particular beginners, don't even consider.
Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 04:40 On an unrelated note, this particular opening outlet has a drawish offer since Orange can replicate the previous board position with e1.
Sure. Fortunately, nobody plays like that, unless it is a life and death situation, which is not the case here.
By the way, what do you define as bad vs good?

On a semi-related note, the previous moves should be as good as their best follow-up. I don't think the sequence you mention is that shocking, I remember it being one of my earlier memories of Boop when I was still working out what I was doing. The drawish issue stood out to me rather quickly, I stepped away from it since it didn't seem sustainable as a high rated player since whoever is lower rated, especially if by a larger margin, would be more enticed to hold up the draw.
Kaepo wrote: 20 June 2025, 14:15
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One possible answer for Gray is to kick out Orange's kitten with a5, making a threat at c3-d2. Orange can simply break that with d3.

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https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 5;&goto=18 Gray's standard reply is to scatter that with e4. One common response Orange delivers is b4 for an attack on multiple kittens, which is the move you used in our game. Though I believe I see c4 more often from that position, sacrificing some attack value for a more stable base on kittens in a line. https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 5;&goto=20
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Vivavi
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 May 2020, 09:22

Re: On openings

Post by Vivavi »

As there is no "Like" button, you get a reply - I enjoyed this post, even though I have nothing to add to it :) Thanks for sharing.
Kaepo
Posts: 44
Joined: 07 March 2023, 12:59

Re: On openings

Post by Kaepo »

Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 17:59 By the way, what do you define as bad vs good?
Orange has a nice shape across the center, so the full sequence is good for Gray only if Gray goes till f2. If Gray doesn't, the sequence is unfavorable.

That happens all the time in strategy games: some bad moves turn to be good later, but most of the time, this is because of a mistake from the opponent. So it's a different situation here.
Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 17:59 https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 5;&goto=18 Gray's standard reply is to scatter that with e4. One common response Orange delivers is b4 for an attack on multiple kittens, which is the move you used in our game. Though I believe I see c4 more often from that position, sacrificing some attack value for a more stable base on kittens in a line. https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 5;&goto=20
Yeah, in that situation, I would probably answer with c4. A central line of 3 kittens spaced by a simple jump is a strong position, offering many interesting follow-ups.
Vivavi wrote: 22 June 2025, 18:38 As there is no "Like" button, you get a reply - I enjoyed this post, even though I have nothing to add to it :) Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure! Happy if it was a good read. :)
Ceaseless
Posts: 1299
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: On openings

Post by Ceaseless »

Kaepo wrote: 23 June 2025, 10:33
Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 17:59 By the way, what do you define as bad vs good?
Orange has a nice shape across the center, so the full sequence is good for Gray only if Gray goes till f2. If Gray doesn't, the sequence is unfavorable.

That happens all the time in strategy games: some bad moves turn to be good later, but most of the time, this is because of a mistake from the opponent. So it's a different situation here.
Ceaseless wrote: 21 June 2025, 17:59 https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 5;&goto=18 Gray's standard reply is to scatter that with e4. One common response Orange delivers is b4 for an attack on multiple kittens, which is the move you used in our game. Though I believe I see c4 more often from that position, sacrificing some attack value for a more stable base on kittens in a line. https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 5;&goto=20
Yeah, in that situation, I would probably answer with c4. A central line of 3 kittens spaced by a simple jump is a strong position, offering many interesting follow-ups.
Vivavi wrote: 22 June 2025, 18:38 As there is no "Like" button, you get a reply - I enjoyed this post, even though I have nothing to add to it :) Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure! Happy if it was a good read. :)
So your version of good is more like intuitive. The moves you call bad aren't necessarily less sound than the good moves, but rather set up initial positions that are less consistent with the basic standards we view the game through.

I definitely struggle with looking at f2 as good because it fails vs anyone happy with a draw vs you, as a simple 1 move loop, achievable even by a complete beginner, can force you to either draw or do something else. Hilariously this counter is less playable by the best players since they aren't going to be satisfied with a draw from such a basic set-up, so it's an awkward position.

I see you changed your mind, which was roughly my experience with b4 to c4 in the first place (players initially did b4, then shifted to c4, or at least one of the major players I had in mind.) Not that b4 is unsound either, just seems c4 is preferred overall. But yeah, you get some rather interesting lines with c4.
SunflourGully
Posts: 15
Joined: 14 February 2025, 18:02

Re: On openings

Post by SunflourGully »

Lovely resource! I appreciate this so much

However, my one thing is, as a new player, telling me optimal moves is less important than telling me why nonoptimal moves are not optimal.
For example, when explaining the start of c4, you say that c3 and d4 are bad responses... but WHY are they bad? How can I punish players for playing wrong?

I guess I just think that this opening theory is more so for intermediate players than newer players, if that makes sense.
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