Arena mode is a disgrace

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RazorOz
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by RazorOz »

Is there really even such a thing as "competitive" Can't Stop, doesn't really matter what system you use, if the game is heavily lucky based, the result will be heavily lucky based.

If you want competition, play/set up tournaments, that's the best way for competitive play.
FrankJones
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by FrankJones »

Ceaseless wrote: 05 August 2025, 17:19
FrankJones wrote: 05 August 2025, 10:00 The game is one of high skill in the long run - which would be thousands of hands - but in the short run, almost anything can happen. Because most people play the game in matches of 6 hands (which is a complete joke), there is almost no time for the skilled player's better plays to win out over short-term luck.
Well, to be fair, a few thousand does seem a bit high for Arena.
:D

OFC is just not an ideal game to be played with the BGA format. Arena or non-arena. It's often played for real money, and the goal is not to have the higher score after a small number of hands, but rather, to win the most points in the long run. It is very similar to any form of poker in that regard.

Imagine playing Texas Hold'em in "matches" that lasts 6 hands. This would be really silly. You might fold a lot, losing only the blinds or antes, and being negative a very small number of chips in each of the first 4 matches. Then, in the 5th match, you flop a full house and double up and win 1000 chips. Well, that would count as a "loss", having lost 4 out of the 5 "matches".

But actually, it would be a huge win, because overall for the session, you would be up almost 1000 chips.
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dschingis27
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by dschingis27 »

Jellby wrote: 05 August 2025, 08:12 Arena is what it is. Play it if you want, don't play it if you don't. You can create/join other tournaments or play regular games outside Arena.
euklid314 wrote: 05 August 2025, 09:39 That being said, I have already taken Jellbys advice and accepted the way it is.
Yes, you guys are absolutely right (also nice that you are still around :D). I have already made my way into several tournaments which are indeed much more enjoyable and I do avoid Arena much more than I have in the past. But every once in a while I get angry about Arena because it simply doesn't have to be like this. Also the system is contrary to BGAs marketing about Arena. (But probably it is naive to expect marketing to be correct. :D )

Though with tournaments, it's mostly turn-based games while with a well-made Arena mode, I could satisfy my competetive real-time affection.
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dschingis27
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by dschingis27 »

Here are some plots that prove my point (and illustrate what was nicely explained by euklid314).

These are based on a simulation. I compare two players, one starts with Arena score 1700, the other with 1800. (It doesn't matter where exactly I set the scores, what matters is that the difference is 100 at the beginning.) I simulate 100 games of these players against random opponents with Arena scores in 1500 to 2000. In the simulation, both players play the exact same sequence of opponents and get the exact same sequence of match results.

The plots show the Arena score difference between the two players after X games. It shows how quickly the original Elo difference is "forgotton". At the beginning, the difference is 100. With each equal match result, both Arena scores converge closer together, the difference gets smaller.

K=40 (current Arena system)
Image

K=20 (current Elo system)
Image

K=10
Image

K=5
Image

In general, this is expected/wanted behavior. If two players get the exact same results against the exact same opponents, then their Elo/Arena score should converge to the exact same value. The problem is how quickly this occurs. With a high K factor, the convergence is super quick and the original Arena score difference of 100 is nullified quickly. As pointed out, this is stupid for games with a strong luck component.

With K=40, the original Arena score difference of 100 is reduced by half already after only about 15 games. After 30 games, the difference is only at 20, meaning that 80% of historic performance difference is already forgotten after 30 games. (Note that it doesn't matter much what initial Elo difference I start the simulation with. Had I set a difference of 200 in the beginning, still about 50% of this difference is gone after 15 games, about 80% of the difference is gone after 30 games.)
There you have it, with the current Arena system, your score is mostly dependent on your last ~30 games, with stronger weight for the more recent games.

With K=20, it looks already much more reasonable, but the convergence is still way too quick for luck-heavy games. If there is a lot of luck, you need a longer series of games actually matter for the Elo/Arena score to get a somewhat meaningful performance score.

K=10 is something I could live with for games like 7Wonders, Railroad Ink, Harmonies. For games like Can't Stop or Lucky Numbers, you could even choose K=5. The effect is that less recent games are not downgraded as quickly for the Elo/Arena score, less sensitivity on the latest result.

Of note: This is for 2p games. Higher player counts are more complicated.
If you are interested in (not the best) R code that does the simulations, feel free to reach out to me.
Last edited by dschingis27 on 29 March 2026, 08:55, edited 2 times in total.
FrankJones
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by FrankJones »

I'm still confused. Isn't the K-factor always at 20 for Arena? Or does it start higher?

Also, I've never thought of 20 as a high K-factor.
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dschingis27
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by dschingis27 »

The K factor is at 20 only for the normal Elo. For the Arena score, the K factor is always 40, no matter at which point we are in a season or how many games you played there. (It gets a little more complicated for 3p+ games).

20 is a high K factor for games with a strong luck element. K=20 is very ok or even maybe too small for longer games with only a small luck component (Through the Ages or Terramystica).
The point of my rage is that for many games, there is no point in doubling :shock: the already high usual Elo K factor for the Arena mode. It makes the Arena score fluctuate so severely that it loses any meaning.
FrankJones
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by FrankJones »

oh, right. Okay, my fault. I did notice that the Arena score change seems to be double whatever the Elo change was, which would obviously mean the K-factor was doubled.

Yeah, I don't understand using a K-factor of 40 in the Arena. Nor do I understand starting people at 1500.
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dschingis27
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by dschingis27 »

FrankJones wrote: 05 August 2025, 23:03 Nor do I understand starting people at 1500.
The starting value is actually arbitrary and doesn't influence anything. The Elo calculation formulas only care for absolute difference between opponents, not for relative differences. As long as everyone starts at the same value, it doesn't really matter where exactly we start.
But we have to start somewhere! :)
FrankJones
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by FrankJones »

dschingis27 wrote: 05 August 2025, 23:13
FrankJones wrote: 05 August 2025, 23:03 Nor do I understand starting people at 1500.
The starting value is actually arbitrary and doesn't influence anything. The Elo calculation formulas only care for absolute difference between opponents, not for relative differences. As long as everyone starts at the same value, it doesn't really matter where exactly we start.
But we have to start somewhere! :)
True. 1500 just seemed odd, being that the Elo system used for players' standard ELo rating is such that 300 is strong, 500 is expert, and 700 is master, and it's very very rare to get to 1000 in any game, and impossible to get to 1500.

Why not start at a lower number? I know we don't want it so low that people drop to zero or negative, but 1500 is unnecessary as a starting value.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: Arena mode is a disgrace

Post by BananaHarambe »

FrankJones wrote: 05 August 2025, 23:32
dschingis27 wrote: 05 August 2025, 23:13
FrankJones wrote: 05 August 2025, 23:03 Nor do I understand starting people at 1500.
The starting value is actually arbitrary and doesn't influence anything. The Elo calculation formulas only care for absolute difference between opponents, not for relative differences. As long as everyone starts at the same value, it doesn't really matter where exactly we start.
But we have to start somewhere! :)
True. 1500 just seemed odd, being that the Elo system used for players' standard ELo rating is such that 300 is strong, 500 is expert, and 700 is master, and it's very very rare to get to 1000 in any game, and impossible to get to 1500.

Why not start at a lower number? I know we don't want it so low that people drop to zero or negative, but 1500 is unnecessary as a starting value.
1500 isn't odd, it is the standard for Glicko rating systems. See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system. BGA system was likely inspired by this. Other gaming websites (cannot name obviously) use Glicko or Glicko-2 systems or are strongly inspired by them. Some gaming websites want the volatility of a players rating to increase if they take a long break from the game whereas some do not for example (BGA doesn't).
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