Opinions on 3P Kingmaking

[xspuipuke]

I recently had a game with a similar scenario I‘ll be presenting in this post and I‘d like to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Imagine let‘s say a Hellas game with players 1 & 2 (hereafter called P1 and P2) having placed their final greeneries and being tied for total VP (live scoring enabled), with P1 having less money than P2. P3 is so far behind that it doesn‘t matter whether or not they place their 1 final greenery. It is their turn. If they place the greenery, they will cause a shift in Cultivator which will favor P1 who will then win. (Reminder: Currently, P2 is winning due to the MC tiebreaker).

Question 1: Would you, in P3‘s position, place the greenery or not? And why?

Remember, there is no right or wrong answer here, only opinions. For instance, one could argue YES, place the greenery as you would do so anyway if you did not know the score. Or you can argue NO, don#t help P1 win—they could‘ve played better to not find themselves in that situation.

Either way, even if involuntarily, this puts P3 in a kingmaking position as their final decision will decide the outcome of the game and they are not eligible to win anyway.

===

Now, let‘s rewind a little and say P1 and P2 have already passed in the final generation and P3 is the only one left with no cards in hand but 25 MC. Whether they place a city or greenery will net them 2 points but placing a greenery will determine whether P1 or P2 wins. They will not be placing any final greeneries this time.

Question 2: Would you place a city or greenery or pass as P3 in this situation? Now it really is a choice, whereas before one might argue they are eligible to placing their final greenery and, therefore, there was no choice in the first place. Now there is.

For both cases, please discard the notion that the final score matters for anything. (There are tournaments where it might; imagine this is not one of them.)

I‘m curious on your thoughts. And please be nice to each other. Again, there are no right or wrong answers here.

[Andrew Davidson]

I'd usually place the greenery to maximise my score. One reason for doing this is that sometimes my calculations or predictions don't allow for something such as a shift in an award and so it's prudent to "never say die" in case there's such an unexpected bonus.

If I have to choose between two players then I'll tend to do so based on our relations during the game -- good or bad.

[Bogeyun]

my opinion will prob differ to most - but kingmaking is just an unavoidable part of 3-4p, so on some level you have to just embrace it.

if it doesn't affect my placement, in both scenarios i'd probably just decide around which player I prefer to win based on how the game went - this could be based on wanting 'revenge' on someone who used a hate cards on me, it could be based on chat during the game, it could be based on just their username.

Choosing to not affect the current standings is kingmaking in itself, you are the last to act and your actions decide who will win, being a passive bystander and "not kingmaking" is kingmaking here as well. So yeah, just embrace that 3-4p can be very flawed as a competitive setting and decide who you would prefer to win.


I'm sure a lot of people might feel scenario 1 you should convert since those are plants you built towards + were accounted for when award was funded so you could argue this is kingmaking but you are doing so in an 'ethical' way (probably 2nd place wouldnt be upset at you for converting since they are naturally acquired plants and you just did what the game is encouarging you to do by converting) - In scenario 2 they might be upset if you SP'd a greenery instead of city when both are the same since you're now more actively deciding the game - but I still stand by you should just do whatever you want and decide who wins, 3p isn't a serious competitive format for this very reason, you cannot avoid kingmaking (even if you can try minimize it)

edit: My last 4p game, just yesterday, I was clearly in 1st, by like 15+ points, as my last action I could fund an award I will clearly win, but that will swap 2nd/3rd place, which matters for elo gain/loss. Should I do it? I chose to just do it since I had a crazy good setup and wanted to get the feeling of a really impressive score in 'X' gens. If 3rd place had annoyed me during the game, I prob wouldn't have done it

[sozabaru]

I think it makes sense for people playing a game to want to maximise their own score, if not they may as well have just forfeited (not sure how that works on BGA for 3p games)? In your examples P3 is placing a greenery which will presumably get them to either 1st or 2nd place in cultivator, which maximises their score and has the knock on effect of changing the ranking of the other two. I don’t think they did anything wrong with trying to maximise their score after having spent time playing a game. P1/P2 should have accounted for this

If for example, P3 chose to place their greenery next to P1’s city, causing them to win, when they could have placed it in a neutral location, I would find it to be a bit poor form.

[rambling_coherently]

if not they may as well have just forfeited (not sure how that works on BGA for 3p games)?

It doesn't. You can't concede in 3p+ games on BGA, yet another issue the format has.

[uo111]

It depends on who ate more of my plants

[Andrei3009]

I would not change the position of the players in both situations, even if it would decrease my score.

It's clear that there's nothing you can do with kingmaking in an online game [except naturally give the player a red thumb], so I only play with the two players. However, when playing TfM and other board games Irl, I, like many other players, am against kindmakung [if this does not give the player a chance to change their place] and most likely will not invite those who do this to the game. To further stabilize the situation in all games (except Seven Wonders) We only play to win, so interfering with a player in not in the first place without being able to win is also not welcome.

[Attica451]

I play to max my score even if i stand to stay in 3rd place. It feels wrong to just give up and let someone else win because you stopped trying. I've had players complain about it in the past but I think if you need a player to roll over and die to win a game maybe you don't deserve the win?

[RoyalRook]

I goes out of my ways to not to king make nor prince make in 3p. It’s the right thing to do and shows the mastery of the game by being aware of the game state.

In my opinion, anyone who argue that they are just maximizing their own score which resulting in king making is just being a jerk, especially if it involves arena rankings. Let's not forget, its against the site's policies to engage in any forms of king making.

To summarize, if the 3rd place is out of contention during the end game sequence, the right thing to do is to stay out of the way. And if the 1st place is obviously secured the win, he should not doing anything like place another greenery or fund an award that will affect the 2nd placement.

[Bogeyun]

I goes out of my ways to not to king make nor prince make in 3p. It’s the right thing to do and shows the mastery of the game by being aware of the game state.

In my opinion, anyone who argue that they are just maximizing their own score which resulting in king making is just being a jerk, especially if it involves arena rankings. Let's not forget, its against the site's policies to engage in any forms of king making.

To summarize, if the 3rd place is out of contention during the end game sequence, the right thing to do is to stay out of the way. And if the 1st place is obviously secured the win, he should not doing anything like place another greenery or fund an award that will affect the 2nd placement.

The problem is that 'staying out of the way' is a form of king-making. Look at the OP's first example - what if 1st place funded cultivator expecting the 2nd place guy to get 0 points from cultivator because 3rd place should place their greeneries and get 2nd place on the award. By not converting - you are screwing over 1st place who expected you to use your plants in the way the game intends.

You are literally forced to king-make in many scenarios.

Here's another scenario: you are obviously 3rd place and going to lose, Player1 (p1) has a fast terraforming setup that will win a short game, while Player 2 (p2) has an engine setup that needs an extra gen or two. Your hand has some random space events and you have Heat production you can use (but you will get 3rd regardless) - do you take oceans/heat TR and shorten the game? Do you just pass and do nothing? Whatever you choose - you are king-making. Being passive and not getting involved is a choice in itself that benefits one player over the other usually.