First player advantage

[Paganini87]

Don't you think that the first player has a greater advantage over the second player? The first player can choose between 6 to 9 cards and take the best first. Shouldn't this be counter balanced with more keys or more coins to the second player?
This is more evident in a 2 players game.

Curious to know what you think

[4WKW4RD]

First player gets first pick, but last player gets last. It means that the second one knows exactly what the end scoring of his opponent is, which is a huge advandatage. In a 2 players game, I think it evens out somehow. The more players you add, the more last player to go gets leftovers as first pick and the less it matters to know your opponents end scoring (more chances to have an opponent out of reach). Therefore I would say a little bonus for 3rd+ player(s) to go would make sense. But it is hard to tell what would be fair...

[Calmon70]

It means that the second one knows exactly what the end scoring of his opponent is, which is a huge advandatage.

What? How does it influence your decision? You want to max out your points in any case.

[Stu_1977_SEmelb]

It means that the second one knows exactly what the end scoring of his opponent is, which is a huge advantage.

What? How does it influence your decision? You want to max out your points in any case.

It would make a difference for real-time games (or I suppose even async games for that matter, but especially real-time) when you've almost run out of time on your clock.

You perhaps might not have enough time left to mentally calculate all the different results of the seven possible options available to you, to pick the best of them to maximise your score, but if you happen upon one that works, and you're almost out of time, you can just take it and take the win (as the points margin doesn't count towards anything; a win is a win). This would be my guess, anyway.

[4WKW4RD]

It means that the second one knows exactly what the end scoring of his opponent is, which is a huge advandatage.

What? How does it influence your decision? You want to max out your points in any case.

You want to make more points than your opponent(s), which is quite different. It actually often leads to decisions that go in opposition to maxing out your own scoring, specifically in a 2 players game. Also, when you are first to go on last round, you do not know what will be your opponent's end scoring and therefore the one to beat. Or you are already so far ahead that given your opponent's economy and the cards left in the pack, none of his options on any roll will make the cut for him. But that is marginal. So you go on a kind of probability rate of outs for your opponent to make your decision on your last move. This is way less confortable than knowing exactly what you have to do. I would go further and say this adventage extends way before last round. When you are playing last, your opponent's options narrow down faster than yours. Therefore, you have better knowledge on where he his going than he has on you when playing, which makes your decisions more enlightened.

[Karumah]

I actually find this is one of the few games out there that doesn't have a first player advantage. Players rarely win on the back of the first card they take (there are only 2 in the set that I think are op). Sometimes the first card you take gets no support. Sometimes there are multiple good options in the opening setup. Many cards get better as the game progresses. And I can't tell you how many times I've played a good card only to see a better card flip for my opponent. Overall, it's a fairly luck heavy game, and turn order doesn't affect that.

[RaptorRed]

This is absolutely correct. The first player advantage is not overwhelming, but it is significant.

The first player gets to take the best card from 9. The second player gets to take the best card from 6. This however is much worse just the larger card pool however, since the gap between the best card and the second best is often very large. If this card is a snowball card like a discount or large money card it can determine the game.

I would give $1 extra for each player after the first, with the 4th player starting with +3 gold.

[ElPopelos]

I actually find this is one of the few games out there that doesn't have a first player advantage. Players rarely win on the back of the first card they take (there are only 2 in the set that I think are op). Sometimes the first card you take gets no support. Sometimes there are multiple good options in the opening setup. Many cards get better as the game progresses. And I can't tell you how many times I've played a good card only to see a better card flip for my opponent. Overall, it's a fairly luck heavy game, and turn order doesn't affect that.

You are contradicting yourself though.

First you say there is no advantage, but then you list on reasons why there actually is one:
1) A few OP cards and several others that are stronger at the start.
2) luck based while the first Player has more chances to be lucky.


These are actual advantages, maybe often not gamedecising, but the are there.

[Nadinabi]

I would say that alot of the cards give bonus from another player, then it is better to not be first. But i get where you come from. It could be an advantage.

[tbhp]

You are contradicting yourself though.

First you say there is no advantage, but then you list on reasons why there actually is one:
1) A few OP cards and several others that are stronger at the start.
2) luck based while the first Player has more chances to be lucky.


These are actual advantages, maybe often not gamedecising, but the are there.

I think the implication was that those small advantages don't compensate for the advantages of being second that other people listed.

I haven't drawn any data, so take that with a grain of salt, but I feel like my winrate is indeed better when I go second. I find that the last few moves in this game tend to be more decisive than the first ones. Sure, if you are far ahead of your opponent, then you'll probably win either way, but for all the games that are close, being second gives you a clear advantage in terms of all the analysis you have to do when the end of the game is near.

People talk about the luck of getting good cards at the beginning, but what is even more deadly is when your opponent gets the perfect card for them right at the end of the game, despite all your calculations and efforts to minimize their odds of getting such a card. This means that the player who goes second gets the luxury of trying their luck on their final move if they need to, whereas the first player will be more in the dark about what they should do.