Using an engine in arena

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Meeplelowda
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by Meeplelowda »

FrankJones wrote: 03 October 2025, 22:07 I am still not clear on this. since I cannot find the official BGA policy. I would like to know, because I would not want to play Azul against someone using AI software, which seems to be what the OP was describing.
This was posted in the very first response to the OP:
https://boardgamearena.com/legal?section=tosv:
"BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play, whether through the use of cheating software..."
There is nothing official with more detail that I'm aware of.
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FrankJones
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by FrankJones »

Mathew5000 wrote: 02 October 2025, 03:02

The Google search I linked to gives you refers to NV Rev Stat § 465.075 which makes it a crime to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, which is designed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed casino.

Other links I researched seem a bit hazier on this matter. The key phrase seems to be "to gain an advantage". Playing basic strategy (which is available in numerous printed books) gives a player no advantage. Players can ask other players at the table, "what is the basic strategy play here?"

If I had an app on my phone that has basic strategy charts, would that fall under the definition of "using software to gain an advantage? Probably not; and this interpretation is supported by some additional website I reviewed. Do I know exactly how the judges and courts would rule in very specific situations? No, I do not. Again though, merely using software does not necessarily in and of itself constitute "gaining an advantage" or "cheating."

If I had a software app telling me how to use the martingale system, would I be arrested? Likely I would be comped a room, since the martingale system is idiotic and provides no advantage.

As for Azul, if a player is using a database of his own games, that means nothing to me. The player's own database might be filled with sub-optimal moves.

Note regarding the Vegas statute:

At the end, it says, "...except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission."

Without further information on what that entails, we cannot know for sure whether a basic program giving basic strategy would be a crime.
FrankJones
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by FrankJones »

Meeplelowda wrote: 03 October 2025, 22:12
This was posted in the very first response to the OP:
https://boardgamearena.com/legal?section=tosv:
"BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play, whether through the use of cheating software..."
There is nothing official with more detail that I'm aware of.
My apologies, I might have missed this or forgotten about seeing it.

This seems vague. It prohibits "cheating software" without defining what constitutes "cheating software".

Being that [other gaming website] clearly defines cheating software as that which tells a player which move to make, but says that strategy books and databased of games are allowed, I do think BGA would be well-advised to make a clear definition of its own policy.

From what was written in the OP of this thread, it sounds as though the player in question wrote a program that thinks for itself and comes up with a "beat move", which would be a violation of the rules of the other gamin site, and almost certainly of BGA's rules.

But I'm not sure exactly what type of program the player referenced in the first post wrote. If it's just a database of his own games, is there anything in BGA's vague policy that makes clear whether that's against the BGA rules? There's no guarantee that any move in any database is actually a good move.
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euklid314
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by euklid314 »

I would be very interested to know how good the program was that was used in Arena.

Since the OP knows the user name perhaps he can give a hint on the playing strength? I do not want detailled information because I do not want the user name to be identifyable but did the bot reach Arena top 10, AES over 1900, ELO over ... (i.e. achievements that top players also reach)? If it was top1 in any of those categories then you could not write on the forum the details (which of the categories was outperformed in which time frame) - but one could generically write that it was stronger than all humans it competed with...
FrankJones
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by FrankJones »

euklid314 wrote: 04 October 2025, 08:27 I would be very interested to know how good the program was that was used in Arena.

Since the OP knows the user name perhaps he can give a hint on the playing strength? I do not want detailled information because I do not want the user name to be identifyable but did the bot reach Arena top 10, AES over 1900, ELO over ... (i.e. achievements that top players also reach)? If it was top1 in any of those categories then you could not write on the forum the details (which of the categories was outperformed in which time frame) - but one could generically write that it was stronger than all humans it competed with...
I too am curious.

And I know that generally speaking, we are supposed to write such posts in a way that makes a person in question non-identifiable, but in this case, it sounds as though the person in question openly posted along the lines of, "Here is who I am and what I did, and I believe my actions are within BGA rules", so, in this case, is non-indefinability really an issue?
Andrei3009
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by Andrei3009 »

FrankJones wrote: 04 October 2025, 11:20
euklid314 wrote: 04 October 2025, 08:27 I would be very interested to know how good the program was that was used in Arena.

Since the OP knows the user name perhaps he can give a hint on the playing strength? I do not want detailled information because I do not want the user name to be identifyable but did the bot reach Arena top 10, AES over 1900, ELO over ... (i.e. achievements that top players also reach)? If it was top1 in any of those categories then you could not write on the forum the details (which of the categories was outperformed in which time frame) - but one could generically write that it was stronger than all humans it competed with...
I too am curious.

And I know that generally speaking, we are supposed to write such posts in a way that makes a person in question non-identifiable, but in this case, it sounds as though the person in question openly posted along the lines of, "Here is who I am and what I did, and I believe my actions are within BGA rules", so, in this case, is non-indefinability really an issue?
I can't say for sure, but likely the author of the post is talking about the person in the 1st place of the arena. There was a video on his YouTube channel saying that this player might be using a bot.
FrankJones
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by FrankJones »

1173 Elo! Amazing. Though, there are 2 other players above 1100.

What is really impressive is the 2476 Arena points, which is further ahead of #2 than the gap between #2 and number 30.
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sorryimlikethis
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by sorryimlikethis »

Yeah, I can't really give any details without giving it away. Fair to say the engine has been performing well.

Honestly the amount of work they have put into it is impressive. And as interesting as the results may be for the evolution of the Azul meta, I have a hard time looking past the fact that they've used it to blatantly cheat in arena.
FrankJones
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by FrankJones »

sorryimlikethis wrote: 04 October 2025, 14:58 Yeah, I can't really give any details without giving it away. Fair to say the engine has been performing well.

Honestly the amount of work they have put into it is impressive. And as interesting as the results may be for the evolution of the Azul meta, I have a hard time looking past the fact that they've used it to blatantly cheat in arena.
Yes. Very impressive if someone could program an Azul AI to play that well. As far as I know, there isn't even an existing Azul bot opponent at all, right? And AI-bots are usually terrible, though the less thematic and more abstract the game is, the stronger the bots can be.

It's not just cheating in Arena. It would be cheating in any ranked gamed. By using it arena (if it actually is a thinking AI program), it is cheating Arena AND the Elo system.
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euklid314
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Re: Using an engine in arena

Post by euklid314 »

It is not surprising at all that an Azul AI can play superhumanly good if well implemented. Obviously that was done here. While a classic bot just follows a set of rules (and thus plays badly in some rare cases), a self-learning AI does not follow any rules that are input by a human. The AI just plays against itself millions of times and reinforces those moves that are successful. Thus, those AI moves can be very different from any move that has ever been played by a human. In fact, those AI programs that do not get any training data at all are the strongest of their kind (also in chess, Go,...).

I analyzed only one game where a 500 Elo opponent was completely crushed. I found many moves very surprising (not focussing on getting the start tile at all except in the very last round, not focussing on 4th and 5th row in the first round, not focussing on a specific column in the first round...).

I hope that the games remain available to be further analyzed because they are extremely valuable. And I hope that BGA will in the future allow a safe space for bots that are programmed by users. This safe space must be in the area of friendly games of course.

I completely agree with the majority opinion here that the AI usage in Arena should not be allowed and is most probably not compatible with BGA rules (which are not well written, thus the situation is not 100% clearly regulated).

P.S.: I would be highly interested to read the Master thesis.
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