No penalties for intentionally stalling in turn-based games in order to avoid losing the game before the end of the seas

[nik592]

I wrote this to encourage more responsible play and to implement some kind of sanctions. Tougher measures are needed.

Exactly how would you implement such sanctions fairly? How do you define a player who is deliberately stalling? How do you tell the difference between a game that just doesn't have enough time to finish before the end of the season? Or what about a situation where a player actually has some kind of life events going on that mean they're around less frequently than is needed to finish the game? Without having a human examine each Arena game that doesn't complete in time and make some kind of subjective decision (because BGA doesn't have the manpower for that, and neither would it solve much, as people would still complain even if it happened), what do you suggest to manage this?

BGA already prevent new turn-based games from starting within 5 days of Arena end to try and mitigate this. It's an imperfect process because it's one rule for hundreds of games. I've easily finished turn-based Arena games in 24 hours or less (depending on the game and availability of players), but yes, others can take weeks, even without anyone going over time. They've obviously chosen 5 days as a reasonable balance for that, and then it's left up to players. The framework then makes the best decision they feel it can based on available information and without requiring human intervention. What's your actual suggestion to do it differently?

[Ceaseless]

What does stalling even mean in turn-based? Especially if the player you're accusing of stalling isn't even the one that took the most time (otherwise they'd lose anyways and make the whole stalling thing pointless.) Not sure why there'd be a karma penalty for anyone if BGA is the one that ended the game due to an Arena shift.

Have you read the BGA rules? What's the point of your comment? You want me to retell them to you, and you're saying they're imperfect? ​​I can't understand your motivation; perhaps you're trolling?

What does stalling even mean in turn-based? Especially if the player you're accusing of stalling isn't even the one that took the most time (otherwise they'd lose anyways and make the whole stalling thing pointless.) Not sure why there'd be a karma penalty for anyone if BGA is the one that ended the game due to an Arena shift.

You don't even know that BGA doesn't automatically end turn-based games at the end of a season. And it certainly doesn't determine the winner at the end of an Arena season (based on the principle that whoever has the most points in an unfinished game wins). Please don't write to me, there's nothing to talk about with you—you don't even know basic rules.

You do realize we can read the previous posts, right? For example, you say "And it certainly doesn't determine the winner at the end of an Arena season", yet it's easy to confirm I made no comments on the subject of the winner.

Your post talks about karma penalties, which only apply after a game is finished, AKA, the game is over. Meeple also makes a post with the rules saying Arena games do end after the season is over with their quote "the player who consumed the most thinking time during the game will lose League Points as if the game ended with that player being considered the absolute loser. All other players will neither lose or win any points". From there it's transferred to friendly mode, meaning the game has ended. No decisions made during the friendly mode portion have any impact on the game, the result has been decided.

[Vad55]

The quoted rule says the player who stalled will lose league points as though it were a loss. Thus, I assume those league points (which are the purple tokens, right?) would decrease immediately, and lower the player in the arena standings.

They may be deducted immediately on the backend, but not necessarily shown as deducted to all the other players in the game. As I said above, it seems like handling these end-of-season AES deductions is done outside the usual game flow. I went into the history of what I suspect is the game the OP was complaining about, and there's nothing indicating that it was ever an Arena game, so there's nothing showing AES adjustments for the loser. It only shows up as an abandoned friendly game.

Yes, these are * games. In one of them, I was the first to leave the game when it switched to friendly mode. I ended up getting 0 points, while the other players got 1 point each (I was warned before leaving that there would be no penalties, but everyone else got 1 point, and I got 0 points). I definitely didn't spend the most time during the entire game—where's the promised BGA penalty for the one who spent the most time? The point is, players, knowing in advance that there are no penalties for wasting time, start dozens, if not hundreds, of turn-based games that they don't even think about finishing before the end of the Arena season. This shouldn't happen in Arena—let them do it in casual mode. There should be serious karma penalties for this, in turn 1, not in Arena points, which are already reset for the next season and, when calculated in the season that ended, only matter for those who are aiming for the top places.

*Moderation Edit: please do not use the Forums to call out specific tables or players by name, this is what the Moderation Reports are for. The Forums should remain a general discussion.

[Meeplelowda]

Meeple also makes a post with the rules saying Arena games do end after the season is over

No, Ceaseless. I posted that and bolded the language that says the game does not end, unless you are using a peculiar definition of "end." It specifically says "[t]he game will then continue." It is converted to a friendly game that the players can complete or not at their option.

[Meeplelowda]

I ended up getting 0 points, while the other players got 1 point each (I was warned before leaving that there would be no penalties, but everyone else got 1 point, and I got 0 points).

Those points don't mean anything, other than showing who left the game. They aren't Elo points or AES points. You weren't penalized.

[Vad55]

[
Your post talks about
[/quote]

Do you think I don't understand that you can read my previous posts? Learn the rules of turn-based Arena games for yourself; judging by your first posts, you've never played them.

[Ceaseless]

What does stalling even mean in turn-based? Especially if the player you're accusing of stalling isn't even the one that took the most time (otherwise they'd lose anyways and make the whole stalling thing pointless.) Not sure why there'd be a karma penalty for anyone if BGA is the one that ended the game due to an Arena shift.

[

What happens to ongoing turn-based games when the season ends?
If an Arena table cannot be completed before the end of the season, the player who consumed the most thinking time during the game will lose League Points as if the game ended with that player being considered the absolute loser. All other players will neither lose or win any points, regardless of the current state of the game.

The game will then continue in Friendly ∞ Mode, allowing the participants to continue playing or quit, without incurring penalties.

This rule is in place to prevent dishonest players from stalling a game to avoid losing League Points just before the season concludes, particularly when they anticipate a loss.

To further prevent such scenarios, it is not possible to start new Turn-Based Arena games within 5 days of the season's end.

My quoting you is because I'm quoting what you posted rather than replying to you specifically.

Looking at the rules, a game may be (but does not have to be) defined as stalling by the following objective traits.
1. "to start new Turn-Based Arena games within 5 days of the season's end." (The rules now make this impossible).
2. consumed the most thinking time during the game (A loss is applied.)

There is one more definition applied without any objective traits.
1. to avoid losing League Points just before the season concludes, particularly when they anticipate a loss.

The obvious problem here is that this definition lacks objectivity. You can't look at any game and say whether it falls into the group "stalling" or not. A player takes a long time in turn-based? It's turn-based, that's what you signed up for. It's intentional? How would you know? Maybe they have other things in their life that took priority, maybe they just forgot. The whole point of stalling to avoid losing points requires someone else take longer by definition due to BGA's current rules, hard to accuse someone of stalling with an even slower player at the table, at that point they might just be matching the pace of the game.

So many issues here.

[Vad55]

I wrote this to encourage more responsible play and to implement some kind of sanctions. Tougher measures are needed.

Exactly how would you implement such sanctions fairly? How do you define a player who is deliberately stalling? How do you tell the difference between a game that just doesn't have enough time to finish before the end of the season? Or what about a situation where a player actually has some kind of life events going on that mean they're around less frequently than is needed to finish the game? Without having a human examine each Arena game that doesn't complete in time and make some kind of subjective decision (because BGA doesn't have the manpower for that, and neither would it solve much, as people would still complain even if it happened), what do you suggest to manage this?

BGA already prevent new turn-based games from starting within 5 days of Arena end to try and mitigate this. It's an imperfect process because it's one rule for hundreds of games. I've easily finished turn-based Arena games in 24 hours or less (depending on the game and availability of players), but yes, others can take weeks, even without anyone going over time. They've obviously chosen 5 days as a reasonable balance for that, and then it's left up to players. The framework then makes the best decision they feel it can based on available information and without requiring human intervention. What's your actual suggestion to do it differently?

I agree that without a detailed analysis of each game, it's difficult to identify instances where a player was dragging their feet, or simply forgot or couldn't play. But at the same time, there should be some measures in place to reduce the number of unfinished games. That's why I raised this issue. I'm waiting for suggestions from other players, and I hope BGA will see them. Firstly, I think 5 days per turn in Arena is too long. Besides, I once played with an early-game player who constantly used some kind of "weekend tokens" – our game lasted about two months, and we couldn't finish it on time. He got away with it. I believe 24 hours per turn in Arena is enough. Again, there should be a real karma penalty for the player in first place who wasted the most time. Perhaps in the future, players who do this frequently should be banned from turn-based Arena games. How do you propose to fight so that such situations occur less often and players actually play, rather than suffer for weeks or months, so that the game can then be declared "friendly" without any penalties?

[Meeplelowda]

But at the same time, there should be some measures in place to reduce the number of unfinished games.

There are already measures in place: 1) not letting turn-based games start near the end of the season in the first place and 2) not letting someone profit from not finishing them. That seems like a reasonable way to deal with this. No system is perfect. Just because it didn't work for your particular situation doesn't mean it's just completely ineffective.

What change would you make? Not letting games start 10 days before the end of the season? A month? A 100% karma penalty for the slowest player if the game doesn't finish?

[Vad55]

But at the same time, there should be some measures in place to reduce the number of unfinished games.

There are already measures in place: 1) not letting turn-based games start near the end of the season in the first place and 2) not letting someone profit from not finishing them. That seems like a reasonable way to deal with this. No system is perfect. Just because it didn't work for your particular situation doesn't mean it's just completely ineffective.

What change would you make? Not letting games start 10 days before the end of the season? A month? A 100% karma penalty for the slowest player if the game doesn't finish?

First, reduce the turn time to 1 day. Keep 5 days for simple games. There should be a karma penalty—exactly what that is is debatable. Players who drag out games too much should not be allowed to participate in turn-based Arena games.