Using an engine in arena

[Priptonite]

There is a lot of discussion on the Bot strategies in the Azul discord server.

https://discord.gg/sDrE4cTFG

[FrankJones]

It is not surprising at all that an Azul AI can play superhumanly good if well implemented. Obviously that was done here. While a classic bot just follows a set of rules (and thus plays badly in some rare cases), a self-learning AI does not follow any rules that are input by a human. The AI just plays against itself millions of times and reinforces those moves that are successful. Thus, those AI moves can be very different from any move that has ever been played by a human. In fact, those AI programs that do not get any training data at all are the strongest of their kind (also in chess, Go,...).

I analyzed only one game where a 500 Elo opponent was completely crushed. I found many moves very surprising (not focussing on getting the start tile at all except in the very last round, not focussing on 4th and 5th row in the first round, not focussing on a specific column in the first round...).

I hope that the games remain available to be further analyzed because they are extremely valuable. And I hope that BGA will in the future allow a safe space for bots that are programmed by users. This safe space must be in the area of friendly games of course.

I completely agree with the majority opinion here that the AI usage in Arena should not be allowed and is most probably not compatible with BGA rules (which are not well written, thus the situation is not 100% clearly regulated).

P.S.: I would be highly interested to read the Master thesis.

What amazes me is that a graduate student was able (potentially; I'm not sure anything definitive has been proven and I want to speak carefully so I don't get in trouble) to write such an AI.

The one created several years ago, AlphaZero, was created by some of the greatest minds at Google, right?

[euklid314]

What amazes me is that a graduate student was able (potentially; I'm not sure anything definitive has been proven and I want to speak carefully so I don't get in trouble) to write such an AI.

The one created several years ago, AlphaZero, was created by some of the greatest minds at Google, right?

I am not very deep into the subject but many of the algorithms have been scientifically published. I assume that one can implement an AI for a simple game like Azul with the help of those publications. For games like chess and go this would not be as easy since the games are much more complex.

[boardgamedude2]

My question is why bga is not banning the player?

[Meeplelowda]

My question is why bga is not banning the player?

Has this player been reported? BGA doesn't just go out skimming Discord servers and the forums looking for evidence of a violation of their TOS.

[jizwid]

My question is why bga is not banning the player?

Has this player been reported? BGA doesn't just go out skimming Discord servers and the forums looking for evidence of a violation of their TOS.

Yes, as far as I know, several players have reported it multiple times, but BGA seems to have ignored all the requests. Still, the area championship won’t be cancelled.

[Meeplelowda]

My question is why bga is not banning the player?

Has this player been reported? BGA doesn't just go out skimming Discord servers and the forums looking for evidence of a violation of their TOS.

Yes, as far as I know, several players have reported it multiple times, but BGA seems to have ignored all the requests. Still, the area championship won’t be cancelled.

By "ignored" you actually mean they did not resolve the reports the way you want them to, right? Or are you literally claiming that they did not even read the reports?

Their reasons for not taking action are never going to be made public, so it's kind of even pointless to speculate about why. And if I mused about some reasons why they might not, I'd be accused of supporting a cheater or something. So let's just assume for the sake of argument that BGA is 100% wrong and this account should have been banned. But it wasn't. So how do we proceed with our lives?

Here are some options:
1) Write to Next Move (the rights holder) and tell them this is tarnishing the integrity of their game and try to get outside pressure for action.
2) Maintain our righteous indignation and post every month, week, or day about this injustice lest anyone ever forget.
3) Red thumb this player and anyone else we suspect is using their cheat.
4) Shrug and say "sometimes life isn't fair" and continue on as before.
5) Stop playing Azul on BGA.

There are probably many more I haven't considered, but they probably fall in the gaps between the ones above. Also, some of them aren't mutually exclusive.

[leogzz]

Using an engine to play non-friendly games shouldn't be allowed on BGA.

An engine is capable to calculate infinitely more variables than a human and thus will always be better than a human as long as enough work has been put into the engine. This is why the best chess player of all time has zero chance against a top engine and will get destroyed every single game.

I hope in the future BGA will make it clear that using an engine in non-friendly game is not allowed.

[FrankJones]

Has this player been reported? BGA doesn't just go out skimming Discord servers and the forums looking for evidence of a violation of their TOS.

Yes, as far as I know, several players have reported it multiple times, but BGA seems to have ignored all the requests. Still, the area championship won’t be cancelled.

By "ignored" you actually mean they did not resolve the reports the way you want them to, right? Or are you literally claiming that they did not even read the reports?

Their reasons for not taking action are never going to be made public, so it's kind of even pointless to speculate about why. And if I mused about some reasons why they might not, I'd be accused of supporting a cheater or something. So let's just assume for the sake of argument that BGA is 100% wrong and this account should have been banned. But it wasn't. So how do we proceed with our lives?

Here are some options:
1) Write to Next Move (the rights holder) and tell them this is tarnishing the integrity of their game and try to get outside pressure for action.
2) Maintain our righteous indignation and post every month, week, or day about this injustice lest anyone ever forget.
3) Red thumb this player and anyone else we suspect is using their cheat.
4) Shrug and say "sometimes life isn't fair" and continue on as before.
5) Stop playing Azul on BGA.

There are probably many more I haven't considered, but they probably fall in the gaps between the ones above. Also, some of them aren't mutually exclusive.

I think the healthy choices are 1, 3, and 4, all of which can be done by all of us

[BalGAmor]

VIII. Fair Play

BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play, whether through the use of cheating software, analysis of communication protocols or code, use of multiple Accounts, collusion with other Users, leaving the game before its normal end, use of game blocking tactics in order to force other Users to quit, or the use of obscene or foul language, etc.

Any User caught cheating or failing to meet their fair play obligations will receive a warning and then be subject to one of the following sanctions at the discretion of BGA:
◦ freezing of the Account,
◦ resetting of scores and rankings,
◦ suspension of Services,
◦ or even the outright deletion of their Account.

Violation by the User of the rules of conduct or the essential rules of fair play may have consequences for the User's reputation on the Player Site, under the terms and conditions specified in the Privacy Policy.

Based on this article from the Terms of Use, we have removed the Arena ranking and ELO of the reported player.