Experienced players: start with subs more

[Romain672]

Hi,
It is something I said regularly in my games.
I think the community is way too afraid of starting subs with 2+ of them.

Starting with 2 subs:
- let you most of the time let you win any card you want
- let others discards cards which are annoying, like a solo high one
- if someone commed a color, let others players discards cards on that color, and make them able to make that player win cards in any color
- make sure you don't win any cards you don't want
- if two players have two subs: know where all the subs are: it's extremely rare another player need two subs, and keep the other upside for the others players

But:
- if your hand is important and have some importants tasks, starting subs could be bad because you make your hand harder to give tasks to others players since they don't have a sub anymore
- make it much harder to give the lead to the right person. But the more experienced players are, the less this a problem
- mess up other's players plans. But that early, you often have a backup. And even if that backup is bad, you still got some free discards to help a lot with that backup


When I analysed the game, playing games myself with all 4 players for mission 26 of the crew (win two tricks with a 1), I find out that starting subs, even with a single one seemed positive. That's because on that mission you absolutely want to get some extra discards, and if someone else have a weak hand but two subs, starting with subs makes that player have a way easier time to play their second sub and give a free discard to everyone else. I would not advise it in other missions (outside of 46).
But so, when you play others missions, but with two subs, and everyone know what they need to do (which is not always the case), and if you got any reason to start subs, I would advise it. If you got no reason to do it, or if something could be bad (like someone asked pink and you got no pink), try to be more careful.

I will add something important, if you are a new player, or play lower mission, chance is, players will do less proactive comm, will play more poorly, and so giving the right person the lead, and discarding the right cards can be much harder. And so the value of starting subs and making the end game harder is lower.


I would love to hear opinion on that.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[yfimc]

Honestly it drives me crazy if I am planning to use my sub for my task and someone then leads sub, wrecking that option. It also can be difficult when someone has a negative task and there are no subs left to stop them from winning a trick. I think there are few situations when leading sub is a good idea:

• you’re the only one with tasks left

• captain is the only one with tasks left

• subs need to be cleared to enable a task to be done

• you can take all remaining tricks and this will complete the mission

If none of those conditions are true, I would say wait before subbing.

[Romain672]

I will try to find examples in my next games.
I agree with your 4 situations, it's where there is no downside from other players: even if you follow the good beginner and average tip 'don't start sub', that should be logical from it.

I tried to write more arguments from my side, but no post satified me: I don't want to scare others to post

And I insist with the word 'more'. Usually starting sub even when you got 2 is bad. (for 3 and zero problem you are seeing, it's bad too: starting s1 if it's available is good in some cases)

[Tuut Tuut tis Luut]

It's not that leading subs can't be a good solution. But if you need to lead subs at the start, either some unexpected problem occurred. Or you most likely messed up way before even playing the subs. During task selection.

But mostly, in the Majority of cases where people lead subs. While an effective solution, very rarely is there any necessity to START with subs. If you need to win your task that way, alright, fair enough.

But ask yourself if it really needs to happen in the first trick. More often than not, you can wait, and do the same exact thing while ALSO giving your crew the chance to use their subs if needed.

[Romain672]

Here is a close and interesting example: https://ibb.co/xqqdvCyM .

You have two good options imo, but I decided to goes for first 2 and 2 subs.
I could goes for a single color and most likely yellow, but I don't consider that better. Even if starting subs can be a problem, having y8/y9 solo can be a much bigger problem too.

And in half of cases when I put value on that possibility, I will have backup/other better plan but waiting for comms. In the other half, I will commit on start sub in 90+% of cases.

But ask yourself if it really needs to happen in the first trick. More often than not, you can wait, and do the same exact thing while ALSO giving your crew the chance to use their subs if needed.

This is a really good point, but from my experience, often it's still kinda forced to do it first turn.
If you got many high cards (or one, but can ask for the lead with it after 1/2/3 tricks), you can get the lead and goes for your subs after that. But often on that case I will be waiting for comms, and if no one comm, I will start subs.

[Tuut Tuut tis Luut]

Here is a close and interesting example: https://ibb.co/xqqdvCyM .

I do agree that in that example it's the best move. You know subs likely be needed for other players. And if you don't get the subs out on those first two tricks, you might not have enough tricks left for the other tasks.

But now it's not so much that you're having to lead subs to do your task, but also that you're using the task to get the subs out of the way.

[Romain672]

Here is a second example:
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=802839358
It was the first game.

My hand: b18 g18 p59 y15 s24
Tasks:
- win a trick with a 2
- g6
- b6 & y7
- b123


The most direct play is to pick g6, but that leave others which got only 2 subs total with 3 difficult tasks, and you lose the upside of having two subs.
So I picked b6 & y7.
And after that, waiting to play sub like Tuut proposed look pretty annoying here since it's expensive to comm yellow.
So... I started subs.


And even if from GreenButterfly's pov (b2 g28 p234 y478 s3 / win a trick with a 2) that look bad because he lost his possibility to get the lead to do their pinks, he still have y8 to get the lead, he got the p1 out, he could win the second to last trick, etc... There is lots of options still.
And b6 is out of the way, which was a pretty annoying card from the task select.


It's a great example of what I was saying: I tried a lot to start subs, and that just give great results when you have a reason to do it.