Is this game dying?

[anonymustard]

Writing from an anonymous account because I run into the same 200-400 ELO players regularly and I'm friendly with them and I'm not casting specific individual criticisms.

I have tried to get two friends of mine to play Innovation on BGA and they both bounced off of it quite hard. There are not enough public matches for them to reasonably be matched up against a fair opponent.

I've shown them how to limit ELO matching, but then I've watched them take up to 20 minutes to match into a game if they are looking for a 0-150 ELO game. Even a 200 ELO player against them is far too wide a gap for the game to be fun.

If they allow all matching, they get a game quicker and get absolutely crushed, and they don't really have an interest in continuing.

I have seen a similar thing happen to Dota 2, where new players had no way into regular games that were enjoyable, and similar to Dota 2, Innovation is not much fun to play when you are getting trounced.

I would like the game to thrive and be friendly to new players. I watched a friend of mine that was literally 0 ELO that got matched with a 390 ELO player, and the veteran just blasted through the game with no remorse. It was over in 12 minutes.

Good for him, but my friend gave up on the game after that (he isn't willing to wait 10+ minutes to match up, even then he can wind up with a player that is far too skilled). There doesn't seem to be a new player element to the community.

What can be done about this?

[FSKFSK]

Play a turn-based tournament.

[jamdalla]

Play a turn-based tournament, indeed.

BUT...

I organize the regular monthly tournaments for Innovation, and have noticed that players at the 100-200 Elo level very VERY rarely make it out of the first couple of rounds. It doesn't help that they get seeded against 400+ players to start.

Would there be interest in a regular tournament reserved for players under a certain Elo? That could provide a good forum for regular play...

[anonymustard]

Would there be interest in a regular tournament reserved for players under a certain Elo?

I think the response here shows you what's happening to the game. Very few new players, a diminishing player base of veterans that have no interest in expanding the community. In 12-18 months online play here will be moribund.

[Babyrhinorainbows]

This is a consequence of innovation being an old game (released in 2010). The issue you describe was also the case when I started playing Innovation here in 2021. The solution for a new player is to find joy in losing and in getting better. That is one of the funnest parts of learning a game. There is no need to doomsay about the game being on its last leg.

The framing of your post is very strange. You make the post anonymously because you think this is somehow an affront to experienced players? You make a vague suggestion that they need to be doing more, but do not offer any actual suggestions? If you think people should be doing more, maybe say what you think that is. Do you want experienced players to stop playing well against low elo opponents? I know it would have annoyed the heck out of me in 2021 to know my opponent was sandbagging me because I was new.

Edit: It is not surprising to me that your two friends would bounce hard off of innovation, regardless of the player base. It is a pretty strange game and definitely not for everyone. It does not have a very good rating on bgg for the same reason.

[Burger_H]

If you are concerning that there were less and less new players to the game, nothing can be done right now as Innovation is a pretty old game. Also, some new player may learn the ‘Ultimate Version’ rather than the 3rd version as in BGA, so they may not be interested in playing here. It may be better if the new versions is going to be implemented but it’s another story and I don’t spend too much time to talk about it here.

If you feel upset in matching with high ELO player, the best solution is to make yourself being more experienced in the game. To be honest, I know what you feel for matching with the player who is ‘too good’. Innovation itself is a pretty complicated board game, and the skill gap between new player and high ELO player is extremely large, like new player may be still learning about the dogma on the card and doesn’t understand what your opponents doing completely.

As a player with high ELO, I understand what you feel as sometimes I feel my opponents also feeling nervous about the game. Well, I can’t give you very good suggestion but the best solution is to learn the game, no matter you win or lose. In your case, your friend may create some ‘friendly match’ that involves no ELO contribution at all. You may just talk to your opponent that ‘you are still learning the game and need some help’. It’s not encouraging high ELO player to play worse to new player, but it’s exactly the opposite, you ask and learn the strategies from high ELO player in the friendly match directly. Ya, Innovation is a game that needs lots of learning, and you can’t just play it pretty causally.

[anonymustard]

You make a vague suggestion that they need to be doing more, but do not offer any actual suggestions?

If experienced players care about having people to play in 2 years, I suggest they be friendlier to new players. You don't have to sandbag to note exploit something in eras 1-3 to end the game in 3 minutes.

If you don't care about having new players join the game, disregard.

I wrote it anonymously because I have a recurring crew of people I match into regularly here that are friendly, and I did not want them to think differently of me or my opinion of them because I don't have a problem finding a match or having a fun game. My friends that are new are having a completely opposite experience and have stopped playing the game on BGA.

[anonymustard]

Also, some new player may learn the ‘Ultimate Version’ rather than the 3rd version as in BGA, so they may not be interested in playing here. It may be better if the new versions is going to be implemented but it’s another story and I don’t spend too much time to talk about it here.

I have only played Ultimate in person once but haven't seen what about it would be more amenable to new players especially when being stomped. I'm a reviewer so I've been playing the alpha BGA version but don't see a ton of difference that a new player would notice.

But mostly, my main question is "Is this game dying?" and it seems like the answer is "It's not very friendly for new players and it's an old game, so the chance of the player base expanding is small, so... the answer is yes."

[baconality]

It sounds like experienced players restricting their match settings so they're not being paired with new players would help quite a bit.

[anonymustard]

It sounds like experienced players restricting their match settings so they're not being paired with new players would help quite a bit.

That's a terrific idea.