the new interface

[jordijansen]

Thanks to all who chimed in. Simply requesting a reversal of changes will not make me consider it. So please keep feedback constructive. I've deployed a new update:

New features:
- Future Season Scoring is now a table option -> disabled by default
- "Highlight possible placements" is replaced with "I can't find a spot." If the player really can't find a suitable spot, they can let the game place it in the first available placement.

Changes:
- Moved some of the elements on the player sheet to other locations
- Clean-up scoring display: removed colouring from hourglass and checkmark badge, made the badge smaller, reinstated letters in background of scoring cell
- Preference for last turn animation -> enabled by default
- Preference for letters in scoring layout -> enabled by default

[Aamupala]

Thanks for listening to us. These changes are a big improvement. Find a spot -option is a clever to tackle the problem you described earlier.

I am happy as longs as the gurus decide to disable future scoring in next Arena seasons.

[friendofblahaj]

Thank you for your updates to the interface! Going against the grain of the thread, I actually quite like the changes to the scoring section, especially the ability to see the scores for future seasons. I don't think this is a game-breaking addition any more than the ability to see the score for a season still underway, or the ability to see opponents' scores in the first place.

Some of the other visual changes are a little tougher to adjust to, but I'll chalk that up to familiarity with the old interface. They're not worse, they're just different.

[Koroner85]

Thank you Jansen for listening (a rare case at that). And also for how quickly you implemented the tweaks.

I don't know how much Cartographers you play, but the changes however well-meant were distracting or even controversial from a gameplay pov (as you saw).

Future scoring as a table option sounds fine and as someone else said I just hope Arena never allows that (as is the custom with other games). It's we the players who choose what's Arena, so that shouldn't be an issue. If someone has difficulty predicting good moves they may play in Play mode, I guess.

Responding to the previous commenter, it's true that even current scoring is a facilitation compared to physical play, but I think that some form of reckoning is necessary for gameplay, to make the competition clearer. It never felt as cheating on my part or anyone's, so I think that may be a good indication of what's sound and what's debatable in this regard.

My suggestion is to keep on experimenting with the new features because they still add a bit too much visually in my opinion, especially the season symbols at the sides of scores. Maybe put the letter symbol only once in the space between seasons, when it's shared? (I know that it may be harder with multiline season layout, tho)

One thing I would like you to make more apparent, on the contrary, is the time threshold line. In the current view it gets easily readable only if you enlarge the season card by a lot (which I don't want to do, because I like the season card to stay roughly the same size as the objectives). I know it may be the text on the card itself so that there's no way to enlarge it except for altering the card, but if you can conceive of something it'd be nice.

Anyway, thanks for the changes and keep up the good work. This is a nice game.

[jordijansen]

Thanks, I'm happy to see we're going into the right direction now.

My suggestion is to keep on experimenting with the new features because they still add a bit too much visually in my opinion, especially the season symbols at the sides of scores. Maybe put the letter symbol only once in the space between seasons, when it's shared? (I know that it may be harder with multiline season layout, tho)

You can disable the letters (and basically revert to how it was before) in the preference menu.

One thing I would like you to make more apparent, on the contrary, is the time threshold line. In the current view it gets easily readable only if you enlarge the season card by a lot (which I don't want to do, because I like the season card to stay roughly the same size as the objectives). I know it may be the text on the card itself so that there's no way to enlarge it except for altering the card, but if you can conceive of something it'd be nice.

I'll see how I can make this easier to read. Edit: hopefully it's more clear now. The remaining time is already in 2 places (in the action bar and on the season display), so I don't want to add it a third time.

[Nadiolo]

I totally agree, it was just fine as it was before, please please change it back

[friendofblahaj]

Responding to the previous commenter, it's true that even current scoring is a facilitation compared to physical play, but I think that some form of reckoning is necessary for gameplay, to make the competition clearer. It never felt as cheating on my part or anyone's, so I think that may be a good indication of what's sound and what's debatable in this regard.

Respectfully, I think it's less an indication of what's sound and more an indication that people are resistant to change. Why is it a reasonable accommodation to automatically count up the points for the current season, but not reasonable to count a later season? Both are "future points" in the sense that they're not scored until additional information is revealed.

If the game had been released with no score totals being calculated until the end of the round, and then mid-season scores were added in a later update, would players be requesting that this feature be kept out of Arena?

[Aamupala]

Responding to the previous commenter, it's true that even current scoring is a facilitation compared to physical play, but I think that some form of reckoning is necessary for gameplay, to make the competition clearer. It never felt as cheating on my part or anyone's, so I think that may be a good indication of what's sound and what's debatable in this regard.

Respectfully, I think it's less an indication of what's sound and more an indication that people are resistant to change. Why is it a reasonable accommodation to automatically count up the points for the current season, but not reasonable to count a later season? Both are "future points" in the sense that they're not scored until additional information is revealed.

If the game had been released with no score totals being calculated until the end of the round, and then mid-season scores were added in a later update, would players be requesting that this feature be kept out of Arena?

I prefer to have the current season scoring showing, although I understand your point. I think current season scores does not affect gameplay that much. It makes it faster the see the current situation and if the game is tight then you can calculate future season points and make your decisions based on that.

I usually don't even calculate opponents future season, but just take a glance at their board to see which player has better future seasons. If the current season score was not showing, then I think I would have to calculate current season to not have to calculate future seasons of both (or all) players.

However, if current season scoring was hidden, I would be fine with that. I think more casual players would not enjoy the game as much then.

To summarize: For me it makes playing quicker and I don't think it affects the game too much.

[Koroner85]

Responding to the previous commenter, it's true that even current scoring is a facilitation compared to physical play, but I think that some form of reckoning is necessary for gameplay, to make the competition clearer. It never felt as cheating on my part or anyone's, so I think that may be a good indication of what's sound and what's debatable in this regard.

Respectfully, I think it's less an indication of what's sound and more an indication that people are resistant to change. Why is it a reasonable accommodation to automatically count up the points for the current season, but not reasonable to count a later season? Both are "future points" in the sense that they're not scored until additional information is revealed.

If the game had been released with no score totals being calculated until the end of the round, and then mid-season scores were added in a later update, would players be requesting that this feature be kept out of Arena?

As a matter of fact I agree with you and I perfectly understand that reasoning. I even had the same thoughts while writing my reply.

I don't have any problem, so if we wish to remove scoring I'm fine with it.

But practically speaking, I think it's impossible if we're talking about removing all temporary scoring.

Think about the games you play. All games that have a "current score" (a lot, if not the majority).

Can you imagine switching from a turn-based game to the next and having to recompute your score anew if the game rules don't allow for temporary scores? A Cartographers game, then another type of game, then again a Cartographers one etc. Only way you could possibly do that is by writing down temporary scores in private notes.

Real-time games would be affected too, with people taking a lot of time to move only because they're making computations.

If one wants to be a purist in this regard there's no limit to what you can remove. You could also avoid prevention of illegal moves and make a player lose their turn or their game if real-life rules have that.

I propose one core principle: if the counting of things is skill, don't add it (or make it a beginner option); if it's to avoid tedious or repetitive tasks, make it automatic.

Now, speaking of Cartographers, the right thing to do in my opinion would be this: do not predict what a move would score a player (yes, different from now), but keep the computed scores from turn to turn (well, maybe this latter point is already how the physical version works, I don't know about it).

So I would be stricter than it currently is, yes. But I can predict that an uproar would ensue if score predictions were to be removed.

(Maybe an option...?)

[friendofblahaj]

Apologies for misreading you! This is a perfect encapsulation of my opinion as well: "if the counting of things is skill, don't add it (or make it a beginner option); if it's to avoid tedious or repetitive tasks, make it automatic."

Some game rules hide point totals or disallow looking through discard piles because players would grind everything to a halt if they tried to process all that information at the table. That's not a problem in async games (or even real-time games with enforced turn limits) so why not take advantage of what the medium allows?