Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

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ahrnge
Posts: 22
Joined: 14 July 2022, 18:08

Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by ahrnge »

Each game on BGA is already rated on a 0-5 scale for "luck." I propose that the K-factor used for Elo calculations ("all-time" and "arena") be determined in part by this luck rating, with more luck-based games having lower K-factors.

Why?

On BGA, your Elo rating for a game is an estimation of your true strength, which can be used to predict your win probability against a given opponent.

When you win or lose a rated game, you gain or lose Elo. How much Elo depends on the difference between your strength and your opponent's, and on your "K-factor."

Your K-factor is a number which basically answers the question: "how much weight should this most recent game have in estimating your true strength?" On BGA, I think your K-factor eventually settles to 20 for any given game, meaning that the most Elo you could gain or lose in a single game (against a single opponent) approaches 20.

A higher K-factor means that your Elo rating puts much more weight on your recent results, whereas a lower K-factor means that your rating considers a larger sample size of past games more evenly.

Putting much more weight on recent results is appropriate in combinatorial/pure strategy games, where your recent results are likely a reflection of your current strength. But to estimate the true strength of a "Can't Stop" player, you'd want an enormous sample size, right? You achieve this by lowering the K-factor.

For example, if you want to estimate the strength of a chess player, a handful of games might be sufficient, so you could have a relatively high K-factor. If you want to estimate the strength of a poker player, you might need to see them play for months, so you'd want a really low K-factor.

For low-luck games, the Elo system in place on BGA works relatively well. The highly rated players tend to be the strong players, and the arena seasons are typically won be the players who played the best.

For high-luck games, the highly rated players are often just those who went on a historic streak and then stopped playing, and the dynamics of arena are all about hunting for one big win-streak, and then camping your inflated Elo. This is the direct result of a poorly chosen K-factor, which is weighting recent games more than it should.

An example of what new K-factors might look like:
K = 4 for 5-luck games like Can't Stop
K = 7 for 4-luck games like Backgammon
K = 10 for 3-luck games like Wingspan
K = 14 for 2-luck games like Splendor
K = 17 for 1-luck games like Ark Nova
K = 20 for 0-luck games like Boop

Your K-factor would still start out higher and drop as you play more.

It might sound silly to think about only gaining or losing a couple Elo points at a time in games like Can't Stop, but if your Elo rating is just meant to be an estimation of your true strength, a single game really shouldn't change much.
Last edited by ahrnge on 17 December 2025, 21:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Kayvon
Posts: 1059
Joined: 17 October 2011, 01:39

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by Kayvon »

Correct me if I'm wrong, which I may be, but there's no overall Elo rating. This entire proposal assumes that one exists, but it doesn't.

Instead, Elo rating is tracked on a game-by-game basis, rendering the proposal redundant. Your elo for a game is only compared to other players' ratings on that same game, regardless of the level of luck.

Maybe you're confusing your "overall elo" with your reputation? Or maybe I'm completely mistaken?
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ahrnge
Posts: 22
Joined: 14 July 2022, 18:08

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by ahrnge »

Your Elo ratings are game specific, as are your K-factors. I'm talking about your Elo rating for any specific game. I didn't use the phrase "overall elo."

I think maybe the phrase “all time” was confusing. This is the designation bga uses for your non-arena rating for a given game. Your arena rating for a game resets each season, in contrast to your all time rating for a game, which never resets.
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Strode
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Joined: 18 April 2020, 04:49

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by Strode »

Someone would need to go through and give the games proper luck ratings. They aren't done by the same people, so there's no consistency. And many are just left at the default of 3.
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ahrnge
Posts: 22
Joined: 14 July 2022, 18:08

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by ahrnge »

I noticed there are a lot of 3’s. It would obviously be pretty subjective in the end anyway, but I suppose it could do with some work either way, huh?
Dan-Flashes
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Joined: 14 January 2024, 21:20

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by Dan-Flashes »

I think this is a very sensible suggestion.
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dschingis27
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Joined: 27 June 2015, 18:30

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by dschingis27 »

Yes, yes, and yes! Absolutely yes! This is a good suggestion, we do need this.

I have been talking about this in the context of Arena mode for years now. We definitely need K factors adjusted to luck factors. It's baffling that Can't Stop and Lucky Numbers have a K factor of 40 in Arena, the same K factor like Through the Ages.

Here is a related post: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 38#p222238
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Cyril EEC
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Joined: 21 March 2021, 00:11

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by Cyril EEC »

Yep. Seems like a reasonable and interesting proposition. Provided all the luck settings on BGA be refined...
ExaltedAngel
Posts: 272
Joined: 16 January 2021, 22:15

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by ExaltedAngel »

It makes sense. The only argument against it is that the Elo ratings of the top players in every game are currently a fairly good indicator of how much luck impacts the game, and by doing this we would lose that signal in favor of an arbitrary 1-5 rating that inevitably will be imperfect, if not plain wrong, for many games
DrakeStorm wrote: 14 December 2024, 02:47 So the designer, the developer, the publisher, top players, and most sane people agree that any kind of blocking is ok, but apparently that just isn't good enough to end this argument.
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Romain672
Posts: 1348
Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: Lower the K-factor for "games of luck".

Post by Romain672 »

You just have one extra step to do it, take luck+popularity+elo instead of taking popularity+elo.
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