Chrome Extensions and "cheating software"

[sorryimlikethis]

This is something that has been happening for a while now, but Chrome extensions have been made to assist people playing games on BGA. Can we please get some official clarification on what is allowed and what isn't? It's a bit of a grey area whether this software would be considered "cheating" or not.

From the BGA Terms of Use

VIII. Fair Play
BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play, whether through the use of cheating software...

Example 1: Azul tile counter
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42891
This extension will tell you how many of each colour tile are remaining in the bag. Is this allowed?

Example 2: Ark Nova helper
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39969
This extension highlights cards relevant to conservation projects on the board, as well as keeps track of your opponent's hand. Is this allowed?

Example 3: Agricola helper
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/364171 ... r-card-tie
This extension shows the average strength of all the cards when drafting, as well as give notes from expert players on how to generally play them. Is this allowed?

[sorryimlikethis]

Nothing?

[Andrei3009]

All I know is that there was an announcement and extensive discussion about the extension on the azul forum, but I didn't see any comments from bga there.

[Meeplelowda]

This is something that has been happening for a while now, but Chrome extensions have been made to assist people playing games on BGA. Can we please get some official clarification on what is allowed and what isn't? It's a bit of a grey area whether this software would be considered "cheating" or not.

From the BGA Terms of Use

VIII. Fair Play
BGA will not tolerate any cheating and/or lack of fair play, whether through the use of cheating software...

Example 1: Azul tile counter
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42891
This extension will tell you how many of each colour tile are remaining in the bag. Is this allowed?

Example 2: Ark Nova helper
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39969
This extension highlights cards relevant to conservation projects on the board, as well as keeps track of your opponent's hand. Is this allowed?

Example 3: Agricola helper
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/364171 ... r-card-tie
This extension shows the average strength of all the cards when drafting, as well as give notes from expert players on how to generally play them. Is this allowed?

The only action I've seen taken is against use of software that was either a bot (automated) or telling the player what moves to make.

Without rehashing the extensive discussions about whether these types of "tools" should be allowed, the problem is what can BGA do about it? Yes, they can explicitly say it's not allowed, but they can't stop someone from using it. I think the segment of people already using these tools who would stop is very small, because they've already rationalized in their minds why it's ok no matter what BGA says. These tools would continue to be made. They maybe would just move their publicizing it to BGG or a Discord server.

[FrankJones]

Personally, I so not see much value in prohibiting software trackers that track public and memoizable information.

In turn-based games, either player can just use the notes feature (or a pen and paper) to accomplish the same function.

I think there should be rules against the two things Meeplelowda mentioned - a bot program that makes moves automatically, and a software that tells the player which move to make.

And there already are rules against those.

As for extensions that just count things that were publicly visible, I don't care. Thematic strategy games are not intended to be "memory" games, so why do I care if someone has an extension that helps them remember information they could just be writing down with pen and paper?

[Meeplelowda]

As for extensions that just count things that were publicly visible, I don't care. Thematic strategy games are not intended to be "memory" games, so why do I care if someone has an extension that helps them remember information they could just be writing down with pen and paper?

Like I said, I was trying not to rehash all the back and forth that has already been discussed elsewhere because it's irrelevant. They can't enforce a ban on these tools regardless of how anyone feels about them.

[werfmark]

As for extensions that just count things that were publicly visible, I don't care. Thematic strategy games are not intended to be "memory" games, so why do I care if someone has an extension that helps them remember information they could just be writing down with pen and paper?

Like I said, I was trying not to rehash all the back and forth that has already been discussed elsewhere because it's irrelevant. They can't enforce a ban on these tools regardless of how anyone feels about them.

It's very difficult but they could do some tiny things.
First of all could take a clear stance on it that any such tools are not allowed.
Secondly could try to contact makers of these extensions to stop doing their thing. Often these kind of things work on tags in the html i'd guess, you could alter some stuff on the code side potentially to break existing tools.
Finally could do some stuff eventually like enforcing the use of client side BGA app instead of any browser for certain high level games. Alternatively require the use of a BGA plugin for certain high level tournaments/arena to make cheating harder.

It's a tough fight but chess sites have been dealing with this for years and it CAN be done to some extent to make cheating much harder especially on lower time controls. There will come a time soon enough probably that reinforcement learning AI tooling will be so good that AI will beat us in all kinds of games and not just the big ones like chess, go etc. that had a lot of resources dedicated to them.

Doubt of course they'll do anything as unlike chess websites the focus is not on high level play but just providing an easy platform for as many games as possible. But it would be nice if they took it serious.

[FrankJones]

At the risk of saying something unpopular :

Should we care that a browser extension helps players remember information that is open and visible?

Did the designers of these games intend for memory to be a key component of the game?

When we play Azul over the board, we look in the box lid to count tiles if we need to. When playing turn based here on BGA, are we really supposed to remember things that happened 24, 36, 48, 96 hours ago?

Keep in mind, any player could just use a pen and paper, or the built-in notes feature, to record such information.

These browser extensions aren't telling players which move to make. They're not using AI to tell them what the best move is. It's just tracking visible and recordable information, which, as I said in my previous statement, could be tracked anyway without the browser extension.

I mean, when I play Azul, I count the tiles. Am I cheating? Should I be banned? I don't think so. I use the built-in notes function to record information that cannot feasibly be remembered over the long duration of a turn-based game.

Isn't that what the built-in notes function if for ??

[RicardoRix]

The difference is, that both players need to have this functionality, and not that 1 person has it because they have the extension installed and the other doesn't.
Notes - All people have this functionality.

If you want that a particular function, then ask the dev for it in the bugs/suggestions. Otherwise you are using player-aids, and that is cheating. 100%.

Remembering key cards being passed round and not played in 7-wonders game real-time is a skill.
Totting up expected value of a card is a skill.

Do you want to play the game as intended, or do you want to play against a person with a bot at hand. Extreme cases, but in chess they call this Centaur Chess, and what is the rule - that BOTH players have it.

[FrankJones]

I don't really see a relevant distinction.

I don't have any of these browser extensions, but I don't understand why I should care if my opponent is using one to record the exact same information I record using the notes or a pencil and paper.