Abstract Games - The Underclass

[Meeplelowda]

I never understood the rules of any more complicated games, much less how to play them decently. Catan was recommended as one of the easier games, but I didn't get it, didn't enjoy it, and gave up in short order.

I would not be sad if I never played another game of Catan in my life, but I don't begrudge anyone who thinks it's the best game of all time. I've come across people who literally only play one game on BGA. 1,000s of plays of one game on a site that has 100s to choose from (I call them "monocroppers"). Whatever floats your boat.

It's not a zero sum game. Someone liking a style of game you don't doesn't mean there's something wrong with what you like. It may mean it's less popular, but you shouldn't be measuring worth solely by popularity. Does it make it hard to find others to play with? Sure. The wait time for some of the abstracts on here can be 15 minutes or more if you want to play real-time.

As RicardoRix wrote above:

Everytime you take a step away from a abstract 2-player you are undoubtable introducing different elements and combinations that you may or may not like (luck can be a huge factor here). And that's often very personal, which is why you can get a very varied opinion about the same game from 2 different people that otherwise share common interests. We are all here after all, we all like board games. It's all getting very philosophical.

I'm near to completing a project of playing every game rated in the Top 50 on Board Game Geek that is available on BGA (that I hadn't already played over the board). The purpose was 1) to force myself to play things I might not otherwise be inclined to try for various reasons, and 2) to try to understand why they were highly rated, i.e., what other people see in them even if I don't personally like them. A sommelier knows what makes a good wine, and may recommend something even if it's not something they would choose for their own wine refrigerator at home.

[Ceaseless]

The two player abstract is the highest form of a game.

You had me up until this point. This kind of snobbishness in the hobby turns people off. Here's a wild concept: not everyone likes the same kinds of games as you do.

And I say this as someone whose second most played game on BGA is an abstract game and who regularly hosts a tournament for said game.

Isn't your second most played game Sea Salt and Pepper?

It's astounding that the beta announcement of Yinsh only received 4 responses in the past 4 months. This game is HUGE in the abstract games community, as are all Kris Burm games.

Personally I'm not a fan of any Kris Burm games. They're outside the realm of a much smaller class - abstracts which are based on an ultra simple mechanism, employ ultra simple equipment, and are naturally finite, decisive, scalable, etc. This abstract subclass wears a cloak of invisibility at BGA.

I wish BGA would make some effort to lift abstracts from the shadows. For some of us, it's not about The Reign Of Burger King, Special Whopper Edition. The two player abstract is the highest form of a game.

Abstracts don't get the most love, but your post ended up derailing this into looking like a complaint that your favorite games aren't getting attention. You didn't have a very long post but have managed to pick a fight with "Burger King" games and even inserted your distaste for other abstracts outside your preferred group. If your intended focus was on BGA's lack of support for abstracts you've gotten sidetracked, and it snowballed into the replies you're getting as a result.

[MarkSteere]

This was my prompt to ChatGPT...

"Is there an argument to be made that the two-player abstract is the highest form of a game?"

ChatGPT followed up its argument with a small counter-argument. I thought I was candid about my intention only to present the argument in favor. ChatGPT made a clear and compelling case. If it was trying to please me, it succeeded.

Especially I agreed with the phrase, "a peak of game design elegance, akin to elegance in mathematics or physics."

That probably doesn't matter much to most people, but it struck a chord with me.

There was some discussion of elements of luck. In the strict, game theory definition of abstract, there are no dice. But I embrace dice in abstracts as broadly defined. Dice don't make a night and day difference. They just add more unknown to the unknown of what your opponent will do, or even what you yourself will do. Unless you're playing perfectly, there's a lot of educated guesswork, of which luck is the constant companion. Some have argued that this doesn't really qualify as "luck." Ok, call it pseudo-luck. Same difference.

There's a lot of pointless debate about the precise terminology needed to describe fuzzy concepts. Game theory requires precise terminology, but game theory rarely bears relevance in the broad arena of game concepts.

I wouldn't put too much stock in BGG rankings. BGG is a self-congratulatory clique that specializes in overrating and underrating games. I would just read the descriptions of games in the BGA categories that appeal to you.

[Meeplelowda]

The two player abstract is the highest form of a game.

You had me up until this point. This kind of snobbishness in the hobby turns people off. Here's a wild concept: not everyone likes the same kinds of games as you do.

And I say this as someone whose second most played game on BGA is an abstract game and who regularly hosts a tournament for said game.

Isn't your second most played game Sea Salt and Pepper?

Only if you have a weird definition of "second most." If "most" is "Mojo," second most" is Insert. SS&P is third.

Mojo: 1396 games
Insert: 1028 games
Sea Salt & Paper: 615 games

I run Donuts tournaments. Donuts is a reskin of Insert. It is exactly the same. There were no rule changes. So, yes, Donuts/Insert is my second most played game on BGA.

[Ceaseless]

You had me up until this point. This kind of snobbishness in the hobby turns people off. Here's a wild concept: not everyone likes the same kinds of games as you do.

And I say this as someone whose second most played game on BGA is an abstract game and who regularly hosts a tournament for said game.

Isn't your second most played game Sea Salt and Pepper?

Only if you have a weird definition of "second most." If "most" is "Mojo," second most" is Insert. SS&P is third.

Mojo: 1396 games
Insert: 1028 games
Sea Salt & Paper: 615 games

I run Donuts tournaments. Donuts is a reskin of Insert. It is exactly the same. There were no rule changes. So, yes, Donuts/Insert is my second most played game on BGA.

Ah, so that's what happened. I was looking at your XP page and compared the numbers. Since Insert got deleted, it didn't show up there, not even rerouted to your Donuts count. It wasn't until I read this quote that I looked at your game history list instead, which still lists Insert, though with the history deleted.

[voormaligvleeseter]

well, for those that do like Yinsh, let me know / reach out. I'm a bit rusty after not having played the games for 15 years or so, but think it is one of the best 2p abstract games out there.

[stillframe]

Normally I wouldn't mind discussing the idea that 2p abstract is peak gaming. But LLM slop isn't an argument, and is a waste of my time.

[MarkSteere]

well, for those that do like Yinsh, let me know / reach out. I'm a bit rusty after not having played the games for 15 years or so, but think it is one of the best 2p abstract games out there.

Thanks for digging up this thread. I almost forgot about it.

All of Kris Burm's games are very popular abstracts. He does what most designers do. He puts his games through extensive testing and tweaking cycles to improve the quality of play. And he does it particularly well.

This is not what I do. I don't want to do it and wouldn't know how. I just invent interesting mechanisms. My games are naturally finite and simple. They don't use what I refer to as "rings and balls and cones and xxxx." They just use stones of two colors.

Not that my way is better. But of course I'm biased. I appreciate my own designs way more than anything Kris Burm ever designed.

[MarkSteere]

Normally I wouldn't mind discussing the idea that 2p abstract is peak gaming. But LLM slop isn't an argument, and is a waste of my time.

I consider abstracts to be the highest form of a game simply because of their elegance. I asked ChatGPT to articulate some arguments in favor of abstracts, and I was impressed by what it came up with. It didn't change my perspective at all but I thought it was pretty astute.

People tend to dismiss ChatGPT as sycophantic, etc. Its style may be accommodating, but the substance is contestable and well reasoned. LLMs are nothing to fear. (Or maybe they are.)

[stillframe]

Normally I wouldn't mind discussing the idea that 2p abstract is peak gaming. But LLM slop isn't an argument, and is a waste of my time.

I consider abstracts to be the highest form of a game simply because of their elegance. I asked ChatGPT to articulate some arguments in favor of abstracts, and I was impressed by what it came up with. It didn't change my perspective at all but I thought it was pretty astute.

People tend to dismiss ChatGPT as sycophantic, etc. Its style may be accommodating, but the substance is contestable and well reasoned. LLMs are nothing to fear. (Or maybe they are.)

I agree they are nothing to fear. Rather, they are to be ignored.