Twilight Imperium

[SilentNSly]

Yeah the thing about this player is that he is for some reason is utterly convinced that you cant have secret deals or discuss things privately (like DMs) per the rules, even though I can't find anything like that in the rules. So when people don't play like that, he quits.

In general, secretly discussing with players via DMs was against BGA rules, I thought, though maybe I'm wrong. You can imagine how unfair it would be in a partner card game if you secretly tell your partner your cards.

The FFG intended playstyle on BGA is open table discussion only, which is why everything in deal text is public. Only card identities are hidden.

If you ever want to play TI4 in friendly mode and make secret deals, all players need to agree to this up front.

Lastly, a reminder, this is an alpha state. Players are still testing things. Players wanting specific competitive play styles or a table of secret agreements should probably wait until beta.

I am shocked to know this as many players have been messaging me and making secret deals in all my games.

Maybe this should be a game setup option, as I would only want to join tables that allowed private messaging and secret deals, and not join those that don't. As that to me is one of the core reasons I like TI4.

The FFG intended playstyle on BGA is open table discussion only, which is why everything in deal text is public. Only card identities are hidden.

So, I can understand why that player "quits" games, because many players do private chat, and I have even been invited to group + private chat on Discord so we can easily share images.

When playing TI4 in-person, we often walk to a corner of the room to discuss stuff. Even sometimes using our phones to message.

[GTSchemer]

I am shocked to know this as many players have been messaging me and making secret deals in all my games.

Maybe this should be a game setup option, as I would only want to join tables that allowed private messaging and secret deals, and not join those that don't. As that to me is one of the core reasons I like TI4.

The FFG intended playstyle on BGA is open table discussion only, which is why everything in deal text is public. Only card identities are hidden.

So, I can understand why that player "quits" games, because many players do private chat, and I have even been invited to group + private chat on Discord so we can easily share images.

When playing TI4 in-person, we often walk to a corner of the room to discuss stuff. Even sometimes using our phones to message.

Yes, but in real life people see you walking to the corner to discuss. Everyone knows it, and other players have the opportunity to object, e.g. "We did not agree to private negotiation this game."

Online, no one knows if you are messaging another person, so players at a table should always confirm it is OK to do that.

Speaking of BGA in general, it is a very alien concept to privately collude with anyone, and would be considered cheating in most any game. I can understand some TI4 players wanting to talk privately, but it's not normal for BGA and should only be done with consent of the table.

[SilentNSly]

When playing TI4 in-person, we often walk to a corner of the room to discuss stuff. Even sometimes using our phones to message.

Yes, but in real life people see you walking to the corner to discuss. Everyone knows it, and other players have the opportunity to object, e.g. "We did not agree to private negotiation this game."

Online, no one knows if you are messaging another person, so players at a table should always confirm it is OK to do that.

Speaking of BGA in general, it is a very alien concept to privately collude with anyone, and would be considered cheating in most any game. I can understand some TI4 players wanting to talk privately, but it's not normal for BGA and should only be done with consent of the table.

Well, the whole idea of using phones to message during an in-person game is not to be noticed.

Personally, I think a custom option to allow direct communications about the game is more important than existing options like "Support for the Throne promissory notes will not be available."

Without any clarifications, some players in games will just incorrectly play it the way they play in-person, which most likely has direct communications.

Quoting ti10_pok_living_rules_reference_20_web.pdf, page 41:

Q: Can you intentionally reveal hidden information to another
player, such as an action card from your hand or your secret
objective?
A: Yes. This information is kept hidden by default, but it is
permissible to reveal it to another player or players as a strategic
option.

The living rules say that we are allowed to reveal information to another player as a strategic option. How can this be done without direct communications?

[GTSchemer]

Well, the whole idea of using phones to message during an in-person game is not to be noticed.

I think this highlights the many different ways people play Twilight Imperium in person. In general with the board game groups I've played with (for other games), it might be considered very rude for a player to be on their phone at all. If they were on their phone AND secretly colluding with another player, that would be on the level where they might not be invited back.

I realize some groups are OK with this, but again it comes down to clarity and respect. Like, "we are going to spend 8 hours of our lives playing Twilight Imperium. We all have each other's phone numbers and are allowed to text each other, those are the ground rules, now go."

Online, as always, it comes down to what the publisher and BGA end up allowing. Maybe there could be an eventual friendly-mode option so players can play with other people who want to secretly scheme.

The living rules say that we are allowed to reveal information to another player as a strategic option. How can this be done without direct communications?

If I remember correctly, this was discussed with the publisher, but the decision currently was not to program an entire mechanism just to show cards (and take up log space etc.). If friends have agreed to private communication at a table, they can PM each other of course.

In some cases there is also a slight workaround already: You can send a trade offer to someone including a promissory note (or action card with Hacan), which will be revealed secretly and only to the target. If the trade asks an unreasonable amount like 10 trade goods, it effectively reveals it to the target player but does not give it to them.

[SilentNSly]

If I remember correctly, this was discussed with the publisher, but the decision currently was not to program an entire mechanism just to show cards (and take up log space etc.). If friends have agreed to private communication at a table, they can PM each other of course.

My point was that if the Living Rules said that showing cards privately was allowed, then most likely talking privately about what was just shown should be allowed. I also found no mention in the TI4 rules of any prohibition on private communications.

Sure, the online version can have different rules, but if so, I would recommend that players be warned about the difference due to BGA code of conduct, which says that you should not:

Communicate with another player about the game privately (for example with an instant messenging app).

[GTSchemer]

New build:
* A "Scoring Summary" button has been added under public objectives to summarize victory points.

[arya-banana]

Will we have Milty draft?

Apologies if this has been asked and answered.

[GTSchemer]

Will we have Milty draft?

Apologies if this has been asked and answered.

You can already do it using custom setup. Just import the map and set the player assignments.

It is an unofficial mode, so it is likely to remain supported as import only.

[qinsoon]

Is there any updated ETA for the beta? Sorry if this sounds a bit impatient -- I’ve been following this thread for almost a year and it’s been awesome watching the progress. Just really excited and curious when we might finally get to play it.

[arya-banana]

Is there any updated ETA for the beta? Sorry if this sounds a bit impatient -- I’ve been following this thread for almost a year and it’s been awesome watching the progress. Just really excited and curious when we might finally get to play it.

Sorry if you already know this, but if you want to play it and satisfy the conditions, you should apply for alpha access: https://en.boardgamearena.com/reviewer