The Undo Button Problem

[StoneAgeMarcus]

Ive recently gotten into playing arena for the Vale of Eternity and the "undo button" is becoming a huge problem. Its not being used in the good faith its intended for. People are taking full turns, undoing it all, again and again trying to map out a perfect turn. In what world is this okay and being allowed? Being able to undo 2, 3, 4, 5 moves back seems insane to allow in a serious ranked format. Also when undoing the game gives your time back so their is not even a time crunch for this quasi cheating.

I have to imagine other people are dealing with this problem even worse in other more complex games. I dont understand how you can be allowed to undo a move other than the last move you made and why you are getting your time back. This feels like such a simple fix. If you make another move after your "mistake" it was not a mistake you should not be allowed to undo it. Only being allowed to undo the last thing you did and no time refund.

[JimBut]

This may be better posted in the Vale of Eternity forum but I don't see any issue with people using the undo to map out a turn - time wise it's no different than them mapping out the full turn prior to making their move.

Also when undoing the game gives your time back

This sounds like a bug which can be reported

[Meeplelowda]

This may be better posted in the Vale of Eternity forum

Complaints that undo lets people try out options, not merely correct mistakes, are not unique to VoE. For example, it has been raised in Santorini and Azul and probably several other games that I've missed.

I dislike undo (for different reasons), but it is a very popular request for games, as I noted in the Santorini thread linked to above. Limiting someone to just one undo is an interesting concept.

[FrankJones]

I keep hearing conflicting answers about whether undoing gives back time.

[StoneAgeMarcus]

To me its as simple as "would this be allowed in over the board play" and no playing out a whole turn on the board and then redoing everything would never be allowed. You have to work it out in your head. Simple as that.

As for the time I can tell you with 100% certainty that you can game the system to make your turn last forever. I cant speak to all games. But the way Vale works is after you do your card drafting phase the game sees your turn in two parts. Either taming or selling your two cards and then playing your cards. You bonus time gets add after completing the taming portion but since you can interweave when you do this you can get an infinite amount of bonus time by gaming the system.

[Arjuna92]

To me its as simple as "would this be allowed in over the board play" and no playing out a whole turn on the board and then redoing everything would never be allowed. You have to work it out in your head. Simple as that.

Speak for yourself. That would certainly be allowed, where I play. If you dislike undo, don't use it. But other people are different from you. You can always red-thumb people you don't like playing with.

[StoneAgeMarcus]

To me its as simple as "would this be allowed in over the board play" and no playing out a whole turn on the board and then redoing everything would never be allowed. You have to work it out in your head. Simple as that.

Speak for yourself. That would certainly be allowed, where I play. If you dislike undo, don't use it. But other people are different from you. You can always red-thumb people you don't like playing with.

Im talking about ranked arena/a competitive format. Not your casual home games. I have no problem with people doing it in causal games. Any TCG tourney, the WSBG, any competitive format where you dont know the people you are playing with and someone is putting on the event this would never fly.

[Arjuna92]

To me its as simple as "would this be allowed in over the board play" and no playing out a whole turn on the board and then redoing everything would never be allowed. You have to work it out in your head. Simple as that.

Speak for yourself. That would certainly be allowed, where I play. If you dislike undo, don't use it. But other people are different from you. You can always red-thumb people you don't like playing with.

Im talking about ranked arena/a competitive format. Not your casual home games. I have no problem with people doing it in causal games. Any TCG tourney, the WSBG, any competitive format where you dont know the people you are playing with and someone is putting on the event this would never fly.

Fair enough, that is a distinction. I don't know how much work it would be to make undo optional. It would depend on the game, of course. I personally don't consider it important even in competitive games but I can appreciate it that others do.

[BananaHarambe]

Ive recently gotten into playing arena for the Vale of Eternity and the "undo button" is becoming a huge problem. Its not being used in the good faith its intended for. People are taking full turns, undoing it all, again and again trying to map out a perfect turn. In what world is this okay and being allowed? Being able to undo 2, 3, 4, 5 moves back seems insane to allow in a serious ranked format. Also when undoing the game gives your time back so their is not even a time crunch for this quasi cheating.

I have to imagine other people are dealing with this problem even worse in other more complex games. I dont understand how you can be allowed to undo a move other than the last move you made and why you are getting your time back. This feels like such a simple fix. If you make another move after your "mistake" it was not a mistake you should not be allowed to undo it. Only being allowed to undo the last thing you did and no time refund.

Hey, Vale expert here. I am curious which games this occurred in since I see a few of your recent games did not have major final round undos. Feel free to DM since calling out players is not allowed in forums.

The "time farming" in real time games with undos seems pretty common on BGA. Some games might be coded tighter than others to handle time with undos better than others. Vale certainly seems to allow players to accumulate some extra time. Ideally the code would be adjusted to never give time for undone moves.

Players should be planning out their final round summoning/scoring sequences in advance to the best of their ability so they have some idea what to do on their final turn. Keep in mind that the final round optimization can be quite demanding quite often and some games will require much more thinking/planning than others. Thinking time requirements in Vale are not evenly distributed.

I think for Vale the clock is very generous for early/mid game, but can be too tight in the late game. If a player has been playing quickly in early-mid game while building up for a difficult finish it is reasonable to allow them some time to put together a good final turn, either on BGA or in real life. 4-5 minutes for final round with a 10 card hand with Rudra and many follow up cards while juggling stones and summoning sequence seems reasonable sometimes. Most competitive TCG environments would adjust thinking time based on the situation and allow for a bit more time on a known final complex turn for a player that was playing fast otherwise.

[FrankJones]

That's a good point. I can think of a few games in which the final turn or two typically requires a lot more time than the early turns.

The opposite can also be true. In terraforming Mars, once the game starts, a turn requires a maximum of 2 actions - but, the first turn, in during which one must choose from 10 corporation cards, 4 preludes (if using that expansion), and 2 corporations, while also considering the colonies in play (if using that expansion) - that takes more time than is given.