Asteroid Mining Consortium

[Attica451]

So what is the minimum elo and winrate you need to be able to complain about balence issues in the forurms?

It's whatever my elo and winrate is on that given day.

[badookbun]

So what is the minimum elo and winrate you need to be able to complain about balence issues in the forurms?

Its not about required elo to complain, its that if you make statements like this -

"Yeah, an objective opinion. Imagine wasting 40 minutes of your life on a game that is mainly decided by who gets the most S-tier cards. Mars wasn't even balanced for 2p, but I don't really want to argue with arena players, you guys clearly have a specific mindset that starts with "a"."

It requires some display of authority for other people to take you seriously. I don't see any proof that he has discovered some secret about TFM that no one else knows. Yes some cards are unbalanced, but he is saying the game is literally unplayable and a lottery. That isn't a serious argument, what is anyone meant to reply to that with? It's already clear that people who consistently hit top10 are better, and its pointless to restate that. If he wont accept that as reasoning then there is nothing left to discuss. Hence why i brought up his rating, because if he was 700 elo or something then it could be reasonable that he knows something no one else does, and has lottery'd himself to the top of the ladder. Clearly this is not true, and it seems like this is just an excuse to downplay other peoples achievements/dedication to the game that he doesn't want to put time in improving.

It's fine if you don't want to be the BEST MARS PLAYER EVER!! But putting yourself out there by saying such claims with 0 credentials is just asking to be pushed back on.

[FrankJones]

Okay, let's slow down here before moderators start moderating people left and right.

First: This is not a discussion worth getting heated about. Yes, there are some imbalances, especially in 2-player where the attack cards are especially brutal.

2) Nevertheless, the game is still one of the most popular and well known games ever made. 2-player games are very popular, and seem to be the preferred player count for Arena.

3) As badookbun noted, the quoted statement was ... not appropriate. It was a broad criticism/insult to people who enjoy playing TFM 2-player, and also a broad insult to arena players. I don't even know what the "a" mindset refers to, but I can think of a 7-letter word that comes to mind.

4) Nevertheless, the statement that was made can be attacked without attacking the person making the statement.

5) Although the appeal to authority is generally considered a fallacious argument, this only goes so far. If the world Elo #1 player says, "The game has some flaws, and here they are, and also, by the way, I have the highest Elo in this game", it might be worth placing more value in that statement than a statement made by someone who, hypothetically, has a 0 Elo and a 0% win rate. Obviously, those are some extreme examples used for the purposed of illustrating the point, but I don't necessarily think it's automatically fallacious to point out that a person making a statement about [some topic] has little or no credentials on that topic. (Please note, I am not referring to anyone specific in this discussion. These are hypothetical examples.)

[badookbun]

Okay, let's slow down here before moderators start moderating people left and right.

First: This is not a discussion worth getting heated about. Yes, there are some imbalances, especially in 2-player where the attack cards are especially brutal.

2) Nevertheless, the game is still one of the most popular and well known games ever made. 2-player games are very popular, and seem to be the preferred player count for Arena.

3) As badookbun noted, the quoted statement was ... not appropriate. It was a broad criticism/insult to people who enjoy playing TFM 2-player, and also a broad insult to arena players. I don't even know what the "a" mindset refers to, but I can think of a 7-letter word that comes to mind.

4) Nevertheless, the statement that was made can be attacked without attacking the person making the statement.

5) Although the appeal to authority is generally considered a fallacious argument, this only goes so far. If the world Elo #1 player says, "The game has some flaws, and here they are, and also, by the way, I have the highest Elo in this game", it might be worth placing more value in that statement than a statement made by someone who, hypothetically, has a 0 Elo and a 0% win rate. Obviously, those are some extreme examples used for the purposed of illustrating the point, but I don't necessarily think it's automatically fallacious to point out that a person making a statement about [some topic] has little or no credentials on that topic. (Please note, I am not referring to anyone specific in this discussion. These are hypothetical examples.)

I completely agree with everything here, sorry if what I said came across as aggressive - it was not meant that way. I didn't mean to attack him personally, from my perspective what he said is intrisically tied to his ELO. I don't think you can credibly make these claims without credentials to back it up.

[RoyalRook]

For Hellas, AMC is pivotal because it's a 6 prod swing, one of the cheapest Jov tag for Rim, natural Magnate, Space Baron on a heavy engine board, depending on lack of heat prod, mass, south pole development and optimal I am willing to play it on gen 5...6.....7......8(heavy discount with card draws you are winning anyway at this point if you can just throw cards around on gen8)?!?? Lolz. The card is a TM Hellas chef's kiss. You wake up top deck AMC against Saturn with titanium production on gen2, you certainly not keeping 99% of the deck, I probably just gamble anti grav, Olympus, Insects, kelp, earth office, mass etc. to him. I am keeping earth cat, restricted, AI, viral , eco, optimal, media, arctic and maybe Mars U, it's that rough.

On best player count, just look at the elo and arena points distribution, the base line are 850 and 2150 for 2p comparing to 750 and 2050 for 3p, the skill gap is huge. 2p demands far higher skill floor and comand the highest skill ceiling. It's not a close debate. You can't expect 900 elo and 2300 arena points for 3p, but it's a reasonable goal, for the dedicated top players with proper mixtures of turn based and real time games, plus appropriate table restrictions.

Game designers are never the real experts for their games, it's always the players. TM has evolved galaxies beyond what the designers originally thought was possible.

[xspuipuke]

Game designers are never the real experts for their games, it's always the players.

This. Always.

[Crines]

Game designers are never the real experts for their games, it's always the players. TM has evolved galaxies beyond what the designers originally thought was possible.

Hard agree. Just because the designers said they designed it for 3-4 players, does not mean it is actually the best way to play the game (which is obviously subjective, but by player count you can see that 2 players is the most desired format. At least on BGA).

[stillframe]

Game designers are never the real experts for their games, it's always the players. TM has evolved galaxies beyond what the designers originally thought was possible.

Hard agree. Just because the designers said they designed it for 3-4 players, does not mean it is actually the best way to play the game (which is obviously subjective, but by player count you can see that 2 players is the most desired format. At least on BGA).

BGA has a 2p bias generally. It has more to do with the players and their competitive inclinations, than with the games themselves. For example 2p is the best validation of the rating system, and so the many players who pursue rating as a goal tend to prefer it. Also those competitive players who prefer 2p tend to play more games, boosting the portion of 2p games played.

[FrankJones]

The Fryx family has said they priced the cards to be balanced for 3p or 4p games. Whether they succeeded is obviously a subjective question (on which I have no specific opinion myself).

2-player games seem preferred for various reasons - I only play 2-player myself - though not because of anything to do with Terraforming Mars. I just prefer 2-player in general. I play all my games 2-player.

I have read posts by some high-level players here who do prefer 3-player for various reasons.

[ArchDevious]

The game is way more balanced 3-4p, the cost of certain cards makes that very clear. I see 2p as only a fun bonus mode good for online play when you want to play fast and not sit around for others' decisions. It is also more competitive due to kingmaking problems to 3p+, but more competitive dont not equal more balenced, I think confusing those terms is the source of much of the disagreement.