Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

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tbhp
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by tbhp »

FrankJones wrote: 25 February 2026, 19:17 Unfortunately, for better or worse, any player in a multiplayer game can expel a player out of time. It does not need to be unanimous. And, yes, it means a player in last place can expel a player in 3rd place (if the 3rd place player is out of time), which is frustrating for the player in first place.
No, it means a player can eliminate a player who is in first place by both metrics, because account's age determines the order in this situation.

If you can be eliminated from a tournament even though you were first both by game state and remaining time, there is clearly an issue with the system.

I'm still doubtful this is how is works, but if it is, it needs to be changed as soon as possible. A player can't unilaterally decide the outcome of a game. There is no strong downside that I can see with making the vote unanimous.
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Jellby
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by Jellby »

At the very least it should be possible to quit without penalty once a player is out of time. I joined a table to play X turns per hour/day, not to be subject to an neverending game just because other players feel like it.
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tbhp
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by tbhp »

FrankJones wrote: 23 February 2026, 18:59 Personally, I find that objectionable. When a player runs out of time, decide then and there whether to expel the player or continue playing with the other player's clock restored to some positive number. If that player then messes up again and goes back into the red, then the same option would be again presented.
I agree with this, though I would add it is also objectionable if you expel them the second time they get in the red.

If you are gonna expel someone, you should own it and do it as soon as possible. Otherwise it's like you can't make up your mind, or you are just playing with your opponent. If you're never going to allow them to win anyway, it's a waste of time and a bad treatment to give them the illusion that you are going to let them finish the game and possibly win.
Last edited by tbhp on 25 February 2026, 22:44, edited 1 time in total.
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tbhp
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by tbhp »

Jellby wrote: 25 February 2026, 20:12 At the very least it should be possible to quit without penalty once a player is out of time.
No, because in those situations the order will always be determined by account's age, which can lead to unfair rankings and eliminations.

This is like the conceding discussion all over again. It doesn't cost you anything to just let a game running, so why would you find it preferable to unfairly eliminate a player by quitting the game?
FrankJones
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by FrankJones »

I'm confused regarding account age. Is that used to determine whether one player can expel another?
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BarnardsStar
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by BarnardsStar »

FrankJones wrote: 25 February 2026, 20:28 I'm confused regarding account age. Is that used to determine whether one player can expel another?
In a tournament if one person loses and everybody else “wins”, you can’t just have everybody else advance. The tiebreaker is account age. Older accounts advance. This only applies if somebody quits or expels. If the game reaches its maximum duration, then the tiebreaker is time left on the players’ clocks.

In all other circumstances, everybody else just “wins” and gets the Elo/AES boost etc.
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Jellby
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by Jellby »

tbhp wrote: 25 February 2026, 20:24 This is like the conceding discussion all over again. It doesn't cost you anything to just let a game running, so why would you find it preferable to unfairly eliminate a player by quitting the game?
It does cost me. In real time I'm prevented from playing other games, or going to sleep. In turn-based, I may be going for holidays, where I won't be able to play at all, I will run out of time, and then others may (unanimously or not) decide to expel me.

But this "account age" thing is only relevant for tournaments. And tournaments seem to be broken anyway. Don't play tournaments with n > 2 players where less than n-1 players advance to next round.
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tbhp
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by tbhp »

Jellby wrote: 25 February 2026, 21:28
tbhp wrote: 25 February 2026, 20:24 This is like the conceding discussion all over again. It doesn't cost you anything to just let a game running, so why would you find it preferable to unfairly eliminate a player by quitting the game?
It does cost me. In real time I'm prevented from playing other games, or going to sleep. In turn-based, I may be going for holidays, where I won't be able to play at all, I will run out of time, and then others may (unanimously or not) decide to expel me.
If it is a multiplayer tournament and you leaving would cause an unfair result, it’s a no brainer what the right decision should be.

If you really can’t play, it’s always an option to leave the game running. People potentially expelling you is a ludicrously small price to pay to ensure the game will have a fair result. How can you even think about that when this is what is at stakes?

It is true that multiplayer tournaments will have cases where no good solution seems to exist, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to do the right thing as best as we can.
Fuchur
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by Fuchur »

Jellby wrote: 25 February 2026, 20:12 At the very least it should be possible to quit without penalty once a player is out of time. I joined a table to play X turns per hour/day, not to be subject to an neverending game just because other players feel like it.
It seems really hard for you to understand this basic issue :

Someone has run out of time -- so every other player can decide whether it's worth to continue or to stop right now (This is what is implemented on BGA right now and which wouldn't change with the proposition).

The change proposed is the following : If all the others players give a second chance to the faulty player then he is save from being expelled UNTIL he runs out of time AGAIN (the time already lost doesn't count).

You would be perfectly save not to lose more time than that which was already lost.
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nik592
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Re: Skipping player turns and coding - curious question

Post by nik592 »

tbhp wrote: 25 February 2026, 19:56 I'm still doubtful this is how is works, but if it is, it needs to be changed as soon as possible. A player can't unilaterally decide the outcome of a game. There is no strong downside that I can see with making the vote unanimous.
It is how it works. It's well documented by people who've been burned by it in the forums (usually in tournaments).

In a tournament game:
1. If the table reaches maximum time set by tournament creator, players are ranked by their remaining time (and rankings define progression as expected - eg. bottom 1/2/whatever are expelled according to tournament rules).
2. If a player runs out of time, ANY other single player at the table can choose to boot them. The game result is nullified and remaining players tie for a win (1 game point) and the booted player is considered to have a loss (0 game points). Swiss tournaments award equal tournament points to all players at the table except the booted player who gets zero. Single-elimination eliminate the booted player. Multi-elimination eliminates the booted player, and as many other players as needed according to the age of their account (younger accounts are eliminated).

In both cases, points as they stood at the time of the game ending/person being booted are irrelevant.

In non-tournament games, if a player runs out of time, it is the same as in a tournament, except without the tournament points/elimination. That is, ANY other player at the table can choose to boot them. The game result is nullified and remaining players tie for a win (1 game point) and the booted player is considered to have a loss (0 game points). There is no voting or unanimous agreement by other players.

If one player proposes to ABANDON a table, all other players must agree, or the game continues. If the abandon is successful, the result is nullified and I believe it's considered neither a win or loss for any player. No Elo is adjusted, no penalties are awarded (except any player who went over time will have a time penalty indicated on their profile).

As for changing it, I suspect that's unlikely. It wouldn't be a small coding task to change it to a unanimous agreement, and there would be many people who wouldn't appreciate it. This appears to be the issue Jellby is objecting to - that they shouldn't be held to complete a game because all other players at the table won't agree to boot the over time player. Which is reasonable - one player has broken the contract which was agreed in terms of how long a game would take to play. All other players should now have the option to exit that contract without penalty. And when players exit a game, the game (generally) cannot continue normally, so the result is nullified.

As I've said many times, my PERSONAL opinion is that I would also generally prefer to play on, so long as the player out of time is still playing regularly. But I also respect the choice of others at my table to leave. I also play almost exclusively turn-based, so continuing a table where a player is over time is less impactful. But in a real-time game, one player being out of time may mean that another player at the table cannot remain to finish the game. Moreover, since you can only play a single real-time game at a time, having a game where a player has disappeared or is playing really slowly means you can't just go and play something else. I'd argue that the ability to quit a game without penalty, where another player has already exceeded their time, is more important in real-time games than in turn-based. I think the solutions proposed here, about allowing a player to continue without risk of booting after having exceeded their time, are good ideas, but should only ever be applied to turn-based play. Real-time games should continue as they are, in terms of a player being allowed to boot an opponent at any point, once that opponent has run over time.
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