Chrome Extensions and "cheating software"

[illy831]

There's always a line. Information can be technically available but also unduly helpful if only one side has access to it. It's probably best if such things are either out completely out in the open via the interface, or concealed.

For example, in over-the-board Wingspan, we don't maintain a running list of everyone's scores. Technically, everyone could keep a public or private tally on a notepad or spend time eyeballing eggs, summing up bird cards, and remembering the exact number of tucked cards...but who would? The information is nonetheless helpful to have, and I'm a) glad it's in the BGA version of the game and b) glad it's not absent from the BGA implementation yet available via a popular extension a subset of players have knowledge about.

But, that's a fairly minor thing. I can think of ways a sufficiently motivated user can develop highly informative tools using public information that may blur the line between just keeping track and telling you moves. There's this (really cool) chart on bonus card overlaps posted recently and an accompanying discussion on conditional probabilities. What if — keeping in mind all the cards both played and discarded, *and* excluding certain sets of cards you wouldn't want to play anyway, you could having a running % calculator on best bonus cards to draw and the chances of drawing them? Or the odds of drawing blind and matching your existing bonus cards? That could help a little, or a lot, and to some degree it's a built-in edge in that experienced players will have a better intuition, or a more dedicated player will take the time to work it out as best they can. It wouldn't feel nice however for only a subset of players to have an analytics suite pumping out all the exact numbers, nor would it make sense to overload every player with such data at every turn.

(And tools can probably get a good deal more sophisticated than that.)

I also agree that you can't really legislate this away. So it might be a worthwhile for each game developer to consider what set of information being public might unintentionally give rise to behavior that will divide opinion as to whether it's exploits or part of the game. Like, JMO re: the second case it might be prudent for Wingspan's discard piles to not be public. Though of course, it is also interesting that it is.

[RicardoRix]

I don't really see a relevant distinction.

I don't have any of these browser extensions, but I don't understand why I should care if my opponent is using one to record the exact same information I record using the notes or a pencil and paper.

Just because you personally don't have a problem with it, doesn't mean it's never a problem for anyone else in any different scenario.
The discussion is about how the site as a whole functions, not just your personal ideals.

[FDHenneberg]

What could BGA do?

A. Just say it’s cheating to use any browser extension or other type of software that has something to do with the actual gameplay, even if it only uses open information and tracks stuff you can also track by taking notes.

My stance: Doesn’t make any sense. Only keeps certain people from making and using these extensions, while others will continue to do so.

B. Actually change technical stuff to prevent these from being used. Let’s say that this is possible, but needs a lot of work (which seems realistic to me).

My stance: Makes more sense, but probably not worth it from BGA’s point of view. Invest lots of time and money to keep people from automating stuff that can be tracked using the notes feature or any other means that don’t need any special abilities, just some dedication.

C. Do nothing.

My stance: Yeah, that seems realistic. Though I even think that memory is an important part of many games (keeping track of what has been played in a cooperative trick-taker like The Crew or any trick-taker) and with the abundance of games with scoring trackers, a designer that doesn’t opt for one might (though not necessarily) think that keeping track of scores is something that is part of the game (edit: I see that there are games in which it would be impossible to gather scores in the end, so this point may be not as strong as I thought). We should always be mindful that board games are designed to be played over the table. I don’t know if tournaments like WSBG allow taking notes (I wouldn’t think so, but I haven’t taken part), but I guess there aren’t many game groups that take notes. So when you play Wingspan over the table, keeping (in my case: very loosely) track of the scores is part of the game. Playing online changes that situation and changes many more things, so there will always be people that want to keep everything as close as possible to the offline experience and others that disagree and say that playing online is just a different thing and can therefore have different rules. I'm not convinced that you can say that one of these groups is right and the other is wrong. I do sympathize with the first group, but I think the second group’s stance is more realistic and way easier to implement, so if I had to decide, I’d regularly decide in their favor.

[FrankJones]

I don't really see a relevant distinction.

I don't have any of these browser extensions, but I don't understand why I should care if my opponent is using one to record the exact same information I record using the notes or a pencil and paper.

Just because you personally don't have a problem with it, doesn't mean it's never a problem for anyone else in any different scenario.
The discussion is about how the site as a whole functions, not just your personal ideals.

True, you are correct.

I apologize for my imprecise phrasing. What I was intending to convey was this:

Personally, I don't mind if my opponents have a browser extension that tracks information, because I can easily track that same information using the in-game notes or a notepad and pencil. As such, I'm not sure it's worthwhile to enact policies forbidding such things, but I understand why others may feel differently on this topic.

[FrankJones]

My stance: Yeah, that seems realistic. Though I even think that memory is an important part of many games (keeping track of what has been played in a cooperative trick-taker like The Crew or any trick-taker) and with the abundance of games with scoring trackers, a designer that doesn’t opt for one might (though not necessarily) think that keeping track of scores is something that is part of the game (edit: I see that there are games in which it would be impossible to gather scores in the end, so this point may be not as strong as I thought). We should always be mindful that board games are designed to be played over the table. I don’t know if tournaments like WSBG allow taking notes (I wouldn’t think so, but I haven’t taken part), but I guess there aren’t many game groups that take notes. So when you play Wingspan over the table, keeping (in my case: very loosely) track of the scores is part of the game. Playing online changes that situation and changes many more things, so there will always be people that want to keep everything as close as possible to the offline experience and others that disagree and say that playing online is just a different thing and can therefore have different rules. I'm not convinced that you can say that one of these groups is right and the other is wrong. I do sympathize with the first group, but I think the second group’s stance is more realistic and way easier to implement, so if I had to decide, I’d regularly decide in their favor.

You hit the nail on the head here, especially when you said neither side of this issue is right or wrong.

Personally, I'm not a fan of making precise recall a game component unless the game designer explicitly says it should be. When I play games with my friends (over-the-board, IRL, or whatever we call it), I usually offer to track any information players want tracked (open information, that is). Not because I want it, but because I want my friends and family to enjoy games, and it's less enjoyable for them if they need to add a memory component (which usually gives me either a mild or a significant advantage, depending on the game).

Another point I consider important: When playing in real life, over the board, the game is not going to be played intermittently across days or weeks.

When playing on BGG, this is fairly common. Is it realistic to expect people to have the same recall ability in such a situation as would be expected in a 2-hour real-time real-life game?

Online play, especially turn-based, is inherently different (as you noted in your main point), so for me personally, I don't see any need to try to prevent tracking of open information. Personally, I find it difficult to agree with the argument that "well, players should just remember". Not for games that span days or weeks of actual time.

Oddly, I haven't seen many comments from game designers on this subject. I would be curious to hear the thoughts of each game's designer on this subject.