What's your opener here?

[ThothTheRaven]

Helion | Experts, Mohole | Deimos, Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate.
Gen 1 we play Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate (paying 1 heat). Pretty standard rush hand

Edit: looks like anthracite (corvus mortis) beat me to it lol. also royal rook seems to be missing that energy prod is great and that i'll happily pay 12 mc for 1 heat and 1 energy prod and a science tag

[RoyalRook]

Helion | Experts, Mohole | Deimos, Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate.
Gen 1 we play Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate (paying 1 heat). Pretty standard rush hand

Edit: looks like anthracite (corvus mortis) beat me to it lol. also royal rook seems to be missing that energy prod is great and that i'll happily pay 12 mc for 1 heat and 1 energy prod and a science tag

But you are not paying 12mc for 1 heat + 1 energy prod and a science tag. Photo carbonate costs 6 for the cards and 18 total 24 early cash, one of them in form of heat, so 24.5MC, that hangs an energy and a meaning less early science tag, comparing to GHG costs 12MC for 2 straight heat prod. You have no AI, Mass, Quantum nor Anti, the math just doesn't work. You can do it, it will work for rush, but GHG is just better if both are played on gen 1. If you are patient, GHG has potential to combo way harder than photo carbonate on gen 2/3.

The 12.5MC difference carry you for over 7 gens before paying off over GHG, not counting heat conversions, that's why I would rather sp asteroid for 5MC free heat prod than photo carbonate. The problem is that you pay that up front, so you take all the risk premium with no sweeteners. If you are rushing with hely here with trees, ocean is your problem not extra heats, we are already ahead of the curve on heat. I am taking the best line not an ok good enough line.

One more thing is that what are you buying the extra two heat prod for? You are paying double for the same rate of early conversions. We don't care for thermolist, the goal is to rush it out.

[primrose1234]

I can see the line, but I also dont mind going into the next gen with a little cash to be able to play drafted cards or SP something.

[Kulikk]

Helion | Experts, Mohole | Deimos, Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate.
Gen 1 we play Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate (paying 1 heat). Pretty standard rush hand

Edit: looks like anthracite (corvus mortis) beat me to it lol. also royal rook seems to be missing that energy prod is great and that i'll happily pay 12 mc for 1 heat and 1 energy prod and a science tag

Agreed, quite straightforward

[HappyMeaI]

From a pure production standpoint, Helion is obv here. Definitely the standard open, but there are a few things to consider. We’re going in blind w Deimos as our only attack, and you usually want to save that for the end or to capture the dbl heat bonus which will sacrifice the plant hate.

Starting w 5 pp and tharsis/ urban gives you all the ground control. You lock up 2 MS and LL. There’s even a world where I can see donation over N Shipment w a dbl city gen 1 followed by urban / 1st greenery gen 2, since u don’t need 5pp over 4, but N Shipment is just super good.

Probably the best start for Tharsis here would’ve been city left of Noctis and CD right next to it, but I’m not a big fan of using CD for production early, which is why I say it’s 50-50.

OP even found AI gen 5-6 and still got cooked.

[primrose1234]

From a pure production standpoint, Helion is obv here. Definitely the standard open, but there are a few things to consider. We’re going in blind w Deimos as our only attack, and you usually want to save that for the end or to capture the dbl heat bonus which will sacrifice the plant hate.

Starting w 5 pp and tharsis/ urban gives you all the ground control. You lock up 2 MS and LL. There’s even a world where I can see donation over N Shipment w a dbl city gen 1 followed by urban / 1st greenery gen 2, since u don’t need 5pp over 4, but N Shipment is just super good.

Probably the best start for Tharsis here would’ve been city left of Noctis and CD right next to it, but I’m not a big fan of using CD for production early, which is why I say it’s 50-50.

OP even found AI gen 5-6 and still got cooked.

Would you mind spelling out your words? "w a dbl" ...

[HappyMeaI]

From a pure production standpoint, Helion is obv here. Definitely the standard open, but there are a few things to consider. We’re going in blind w Deimos as our only attack, and you usually want to save that for the end or to capture the dbl heat bonus which will sacrifice the plant hate.

Starting w 5 pp and tharsis/ urban gives you all the ground control. You lock up 2 MS and LL. There’s even a world where I can see donation over N Shipment w a dbl city gen 1 followed by urban / 1st greenery gen 2, since u don’t need 5pp over 4, but N Shipment is just super good.

Probably the best start for Tharsis here would’ve been city left of Noctis and CD right next to it, but I’m not a big fan of using CD for production early, which is why I say it’s 50-50.

OP even found AI gen 5-6 and still got cooked.

Would you mind spelling out your words? "w a dbl" ...

Meaning SP a 2nd city and urban is basically free using donation.

[Corvus Mortis]

From a pure production standpoint, Helion is obv here. Definitely the standard open, but there are a few things to consider. We’re going in blind w Deimos as our only attack, and you usually want to save that for the end or to capture the dbl heat bonus which will sacrifice the plant hate.

Starting w 5 pp and tharsis/ urban gives you all the ground control. You lock up 2 MS and LL. There’s even a world where I can see donation over N Shipment w a dbl city gen 1 followed by urban / 1st greenery gen 2, since u don’t need 5pp over 4, but N Shipment is just super good.

Probably the best start for Tharsis here would’ve been city left of Noctis and CD right next to it, but I’m not a big fan of using CD for production early, which is why I say it’s 50-50.

OP even found AI gen 5-6 and still got cooked.

SP’ing a city here gen 1 is a disaster. Particularly in hopes of Urbanizing yourself (which is almost never worth it early).

You have heavy plant production here, the last thing you want to do is sacrifice all your game control (heat production) to dump a bunch of cash into cities. Even a mediocre engine will have plenty of time to catch up to your start, even if you lock up Mayor and Gardener. Landlord is not locked up at all, and can quickly be overwhelmed by a draw engine into Insects/NRA because you lack the ability to get out of the game.

I’m sure plenty of mistakes were made along the way here that slowed us down, but starting with 10 heat production and 4 plant production as Helion is a very strong start with flexibility for both rush and an engine pivot.

[Corvus Mortis]

Helion | Experts, Mohole | Deimos, Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate.
Gen 1 we play Trees, Photosynthesis, Carbonate (paying 1 heat). Pretty standard rush hand

Edit: looks like anthracite (corvus mortis) beat me to it lol. also royal rook seems to be missing that energy prod is great and that i'll happily pay 12 mc for 1 heat and 1 energy prod and a science tag

But you are not paying 12mc for 1 heat + 1 energy prod and a science tag. Photo carbonate costs 6 for the cards and 18 total 24 early cash, one of them in form of heat, so 24.5MC, that hangs an energy and a meaning less early science tag, comparing to GHG costs 12MC for 2 straight heat prod. You have no AI, Mass, Quantum nor Anti, the math just doesn't work. You can do it, it will work for rush, but GHG is just better if both are played on gen 1. If you are patient, GHG has potential to combo way harder than photo carbonate on gen 2/3.

The 12.5MC difference carry you for over 7 gens before paying off over GHG, not counting heat conversions, that's why I would rather sp asteroid for 5MC free heat prod than photo carbonate. The problem is that you pay that up front, so you take all the risk premium with no sweeteners. If you are rushing with hely here with trees, ocean is your problem not extra heats, we are already ahead of the curve on heat. I am taking the best line not an ok good enough line.

One more thing is that what are you buying the extra two heat prod for? You are paying double for the same rate of early conversions. We don't care for thermolist, the goal is to rush it out.

Calling an early science tag “meaningless” and the energy “hung” is the source of your issue. The energy might get tapped, sure. So might your heat prod. If you develop titanium, that could get AMC’ed. Floating energy production is a clear strategy for Helion in most games and in addition to the downside (tapping), there is plenty of upside (Dev Center, GHG Factories, cities, etc).

I don’t really understand your math. You simultaneously *recommend* playing 12 for 2 heat prod (Advanced GHG) and yet say paying 24 for 4 heat prod is bad. Sitting on GHG if you buy it hoping for combos is just a bad move, particularly since you’re advocating a light-handed rush (where you won’t see many cards to find combos).

You’re saying this is a predetermined rush, but I disagree. If we find more science and draw, we can easily pivot to long game — we have 10 prod, plants, and can easily scale well. If we find more events and/or face an engine, we can go light-handed and get out quickly. Extremely flexible and no need to commit ourselves one way or the other from the opener.

[FrankJones]

Usually, Tharsis is considered better than Helion, right? Or, not?

I'm curious what makes this obvious a Helion hand rather than Tharsis. Tharsis does okay with strong starting plant production and 6 heat production, right?