Is there a more toxic game than Spades?

[Merlin-et]

I hear you! The ammount of people that shove unsolicited advice on this game is insane. i came to this thread after being stumped at the reporting system and not being able to report the toxic behaviours around it. I came to try to learn to play, and announced i was new i hopes people would be patient as i trial and error. other games, people usually show patience and understanding. this game is fairly complex and no real way to learn than tirial and error and experimenting. but people act like i dont have a right to do that here, and its not even arena.... i got into trying here one night after a general message went out seeking a seat, and i came across a very patient group that didnt mind me throwing myself in a bit blind. and it was a lot of fun trying to understand. havent seen that same group since though, and was aiming to keep practising until i figured it out. but some people act like its the end of the world. and if i dont do what they would have done, i get lectured even when i pulled my own anyway.
and then when i stood up for myself, they got salty and start stalling the game like they are sulking. cant recognize how their own game play and calls impacted them, especially going nil literally right after i said i was still learning, and bid low. And it really sucks that these kind of mannerisms arent seemingly reportable. cause these kind of people are going to drive new players away. and that is really unfortunate for any gaming community. and it sucks even more when other players just play bystander to it too. I was really looking forward to learning to play, but now i feel like i might as well just stick to the ones i know and play with the nicer lobbies....

[Merlin-et]

I dont know if I am typing this right. or if this will allign with the referenced part. However, I think I might like to learn more and understand this dialogue. I am nervous about asking my questions on a public forum with how cuthroat game/lobby. However i have some very newbism questions where I am not following what you guys are talking about.

I am to spades from euchre. anything past 5 is scary.....you guys are talking like we should always be aiming for 11?? Im still trying to understand the bags part more...I thought getting bags altogether was just really bad. man, is there any kind of mentorship groups that wouldnt mind pairing with newbs and help teach us the complexities? My first dabbles into spades was as a kid in the 90s without internet playing on the comp and randomly clicking. Im fascinated to be learning the rest of the pieces of this game. I'll probably spend some time checking out some of the other forums though to try to muddle my way through one step at a time :p

Frank, unfortunately i disagree with you. unless, it is near the end of the game. you should always be looking to set on 11 bid. Often the difference between an 11 bid and a 12 bid is someone losing a King or an ace.. if you go for the set, 3 things happen. 1. you might set the opps. 2. you will not get set yourself. 3. most times the bags are split anyway, so trying to avoid bags is inconsequential.

basically, you should only avoid bags on 11 bid when it is clear no one can get set.

players like me, will often notice when one player is playing to avoid bags.. we will begin not trumping and tossing off suits and letting our p win with low cards....and then we can trump the opp's partner on an A or K they were counting on. it happens a lot of the time.

it happened yesterday. The opp said "i saw you tossing so i didnt trump" but their p was just tossing cause they knew their partner had the ability to trump. so no one trumps and the set is in.

I don't disagree with you.

But there's also context. Did I reach to make it an 11 bid? If so, I need to ask myself whether a set is feasible. Because to set the 11 bid, I need to make mine, and my parter needs 3 more. Then I consider the bids of the other players and I examine which cards they play. It's not always possible to set an 11 bid, and part of the skill is recognizing those instances to avoid taking needless bags going for a hopeless set.

I'm sure you know all this. We have similar ratings. I was recently as high as 378. Anyone who says "Always go for sets on 11 bids no matter what" is going to misplay some hands and take needles bags.

If none of the information available suggests a possibility of a set, it's likely not correct to go for it.

[Tuut Tuut tis Luut]

I hear you! The ammount of people that shove unsolicited advice on this game is insane. i came to this thread after being stumped at the reporting system and not being able to report the toxic behaviours around it. I came to try to learn to play, and announced i was new i hopes people would be patient as i trial and error. other games, people usually show patience and understanding.

I do see a bit of a mismatch here. Definitely agree that there's a lot of toxicity. But unsolicited advice is not automatically toxic. And should be welcomed if your goal is to learn the game.

I feel like the problem has two sides here. Firstly obviously there's plenty of toxic players who just like to complain and make others feel bad about perceived mistakes. Without offering useful and constructive advice.

Secondly, there's a lot of players who consider any unsolicited advice as rude by definition. Even when given in a constructive an and non-hostile way. If you don't like getting advice that's obviously fine, and you can let them know in a polite fashion.

But if a constructive explanation of a perceived mistake is given. And you call that toxicity. I'd argue you are the toxic player there. And you're not actually interested in learning or improving at the game.

[Merlin-et]

firstly unsolicited advice is toxic, and falls under "invalidating statements". you cant really "disagree" with fact. and i trust my educated opinion on this one. psych central and psychology today and countless other avenues have articles on the depths of this and its harmful impact. you might want to consider checking this theme out more so you aren't causing unintentional harm amidst your communities (whether online or interpersonal....)

however you missed some key elements of the experience i shared. I had politely rejected it. first time, having played my hand exactly as planned scoring the exact tricks i bid I highlighted in chat that i knew what i was doing that time. but they argued and pressured. so I ignored them and tried to keep playing, while they kept spamming and flooding chat, pressuring and being bossy. the second time i spoke up, I direct asking them to stop criticizing my every move/mistake. on that note, they got more arrogant both in chat and in stalled behaviour, acting very childish and disrespectful, with other payers also asking them to play better/faster. and they were also super polite in their requests towards this player. this player though was absolutely without a doubt antagonizing and acting abusively. And again, i am actually trained in this field and know what im talking about.

but you know what else is toxic? how quickly people rush to defend their perceptions and justify away someones narrative and experience and essentially victim blame. do you tend to give unsolicited advice yourself? did you feel targeted by my comment? perhaps you might want to analyze your own ways, like perhaps just ad a small step like "may i make a suggestion?" consent check before just throwing it out there. however, i remember you at tables, and i don't recall ever having and issue with your mannerisms or recall for sure if you had even given unsolicited advice to me. nor my son who plays too. we both remember you. Our experiences with you have been positive. So i really dont think what im talking about applies so much to you. Theres also a fairly big vibe and mannerisms difference coming from a good intentioned person and one whos doing it out of entitlement/control: one cant stand when they dont get there way, as the behaviours around it demonstrated for the experience i have shared. regardless though, invalidation statements/ mannerisms such as unsolicited advice are carried like currency on the nervous system, and if this is a normalized and overly accepted behaviour where no one stands up with those of us who speak up for ourselves: youll continue to lose people and carry the bad rep and associations with this game.

its disappointing having you come and victim blame me on my comment/experience and shift narratives. this is complicit behaviour that literally supports abusive nature of others, and essentially telling me as a new player that i "should welcome it" and just take it/be quiet. condoning bad behaviours because "not all" who do it have bad intentions... intent doesnt negate impact, nor does your narrative get to override mine and my lived experience. you have no right to come and "disagree" with the truth ive shared, nor have i done anything to warrant you coming in and discrediting me. and i hope you check yourself and really think about how insulting this has been. there's a podcast series on youtube called "i hear you" and episode 3 covers validation vs invalidation. and unsolicited advice, common with fixer type personalities. Highly recommend people check it out and stop being so quick to minimize impacts like you have here. Because this also ads to toxicity in environments all around and make it unsafe. intent does not negate impact. nor should anyone be expected or forced into receiving information they didn't ask for. being new doesn't take away my rights to autonomy and playing what feels right to me, and learning by trial and error as with all games. I watched the tutorials available before playing. and everyone needs to start somewhere. Nor did anyone deserve to put up with their tantrum once boundaries were requested, stalling at each turn like they did.

honestly, it scares me just how quick you are to rush to defend and assume i'm lying or jumping to assumptions, playing "two sides" card. its not "two sides" when one person is acting abusively, stonewalling gameplay when they didnt get their way, clearly rooted in "control" not care/helpful sportsmanship. having other players ask multiple times for them to play turns faster, being in the red/negative numbers, but never letting it get exactly to the 20 second kick line. Its not 50/50 in abuse. 50/50 assumes both sides acting reasonable, or both sides must be acting some level of unreasonable, trying to treat us as equals under a guise of being "fair"/"keep the peace". I did absolutely nothing wrong, nor should i be expected to cater to these types of people in any way, nor others who want to replicate similar behaviours REGARDLESS of their "good intentions". and i should not be scapegoated as though i have done wrong just for speaking up about an experience id just had. I dont owe anyone my time or mental energy. nor should anyone being trying to micromanage and correct me just because i spoke up. the suppression though and "image control" mannerisms through your defense though speaks volumes....

Believe it or not: i was polite. i was honest. i was reasonable. and i have given you no indication, especially in times i've played at tables with you, to think otherwise. do you seriously want to be normalizing this behaviour and excusing even the worst of them in order to defend those who do this (still toxic) behaviour with better intentions/acceptance of other players autonomy? Are you seriously expecting us to just take it because "thats just the way it is" when you have many of us speaking up on how toxic the culture of these lobbies are? its like taking the generalizations personal....and doubling down on the toxicities instead of growth/listening and working to better it.

congrats though for backing up toxic and excusing it and making it more clear spades is not a safe lobby. and this may be my own personal first experience, however by the theme of this thread as well as convos in other lobbies of other card games: spades is known to be toxic. And if this is the complicit mannerisms people uphold here: no wonder. people normalizing harmful behaviours amongst each other, and then shrinking the voices that speak up, expecting us to hide truth and reality to make yourselves more comfortable and "keep the peace" at the expense of ourselves. You suuuuure you want to be on this side of the problem? its not up to me or anyone else to carry the mental load for those who wish to be ignorant. no matter what the equation or semantics. and i really do hope you (and others reading this) will consider the points i have made and what level of complicit they wish to play in this environment. this world has enough bystanders. lets instead learn to be emotionally safe and evolve by educating ourselves instead of carrying forward toxic patterns that refuse to grow with the education all around it. i gave you some seeds to start. i did my time and education including negotiation/mediation. and am skilled in de-escalation too. I dont owe any more to anyone in this game than what i already give. and i shouldnt have to exercise my education in order to self advocate, especially to the lengths i already have. But i am a cycle breaker too, and i gladlly will volunteer some of the tools/themes i have acquired in my journey here as an INVITE (not expectation) for those who wish to better themselves and educate on theme i have described and suggested. Especially those who do not want to remain complicit in the toxicities around these lobbies (or any games known for it as this one has been). I really hope you'll consider the invite. and i wish you all the best all the same...

I hear you! The ammount of people that shove unsolicited advice on this game is insane. i came to this thread after being stumped at the reporting system and not being able to report the toxic behaviours around it. I came to try to learn to play, and announced i was new i hopes people would be patient as i trial and error. other games, people usually show patience and understanding.

I do see a bit of a mismatch here. Definitely agree that there's a lot of toxicity. But unsolicited advice is not automatically toxic. And should be welcomed if your goal is to learn the game.

I feel like the problem has two sides here. Firstly obviously there's plenty of toxic players who just like to complain and make others feel bad about perceived mistakes. Without offering useful and constructive advice.

Secondly, there's a lot of players who consider any unsolicited advice as rude by definition. Even when given in a constructive an and non-hostile way. If you don't like getting advice that's obviously fine, and you can let them know in a polite fashion.

But if a constructive explanation of a perceived mistake is given. And you call that toxicity. I'd argue you are the toxic player there. And you're not actually interested in learning or improving at the game.

[Merlin-et]

Secondly, there's a lot of players who consider any unsolicited advice as rude by definition. Even when given in a constructive an and non-hostile way. If you don't like getting advice that's obviously fine, and you can let them know in a polite fashion.

"But if a constructive explanation of a perceived mistake is given. And you call that toxicity. I'd argue you are the toxic player there. And you're not actually interested in learning or improving at the game."

The sentence i have underlined and bolded (hoping that comes through right) is a prime example of DARVO btw. your entire second point is mute also seeing as i did speak up in the game politely. . the whole darvo mannerism you pulled here though really highlights a root issue amidst the toxic community of this game.... this is a really big red flag that you might really want to check yourself on, the acronym can easily be looked up and further explained in many psychology articles if you so choose.

i confirmed with my son and we both had nothing but positive experiences with you at the tables we've seen you in (not spades though) . and it really is saddening to see someone we've seen positively pop up now using redflaggy language, minimising mine (and others) experiences to better match your own.

[Tuut Tuut tis Luut]

firstly unsolicited advice is toxic, and falls under "invalidating statements". you cant really "disagree" with fact. and i trust my educated opinion on this one.

I feel like there might be some miscommunication here about what unsolicited advice means exactly. English isn't my native language so that might be part of the problem.

I read unsolicited to simply mean not asked for (in advance). Which isn't necessarily the same as being unwanted.

Of course if someone continues to comment, after being told you don't appreciate it. As you describe in your other comment. That's obviously rude and toxic. But I would classify that as more than just unsolicited.

Similarly, when I say advice. That means actually helpful tips and explanations. Rude comments and/or comments that merely point out errors without trying to be helpful or constructive. Are definitely toxic, but are also not advice.

So what I mean by unsolicited advice, is a genuine attempt at giving a tip, without insulting or being rude about it. And given without being asked for, but not despite being told it's unwanted.

I hope that clears up my position. I realize my earlier comment wasn't clear and reads fairly hostile in hindsight.

[azcats2002]

To Merlin

Bags are rarely bad. It is rare for 1 team to lose simply cause they had 10 bags.

More likely it is cards or sets.

So if u dont try for sets you are allowing luck to dictate wins and losses.

Here is the math most dont understand.

19 bags is -81 pts. -100 +19

If u set a 4 bid, they dont gain 40 and lose 40. -80 pts.

Thus u can go for sets all day long and will most likely win if u can get 1 or 2 sets.

10 bids…u avoid tricks. Take ur ps winners. Duck under opps winners. Until about 6 cards left. Then decide if u need to take.

11 bids or higher. U just go for the set.

Why to set 11 bids? If u are going for set, you wont get set. Simple as that. Most 11 bids the bags can be split. If u get the set u have won a huge advantage.

When u play, play for ur ps best interest. That will go a long way.

[FrankJones]

Why do you keep stating the cost of 19 bags as though the game caps bags at 19? As though no team is ever going to end up with one more bag, at which point the cost has now increased from -81 to -180?

Is there some new rule I wasn't aware of that says a team cannot incur the bag penalty more than once?

[Merlin-et]

did you check out the podcast i recommended? if not, then seems wilful/chosen ignorance then...

its not a communication issue here. intent doesnt negate impact. and unsolicited advice is still advice given without consent. and just because group think and cultural practices minimise impacts based on "intentions" systemically all around us does not change the facts behind the behaviours. again, many different psychology articles on these themes. Just because you mean well doesnt mean other people should be expected to just take what you offer. Thats all around toxic behaviours/mannerisms and protects both intentional as well as unintentional harmful/abusive people. and we have a whole lot of people, especially through these lobbies that feel entitled to push their "wisdoms" onto people. look how quick you are/were to defend this yourself. . . are you truly even listening to understand? or just to respond, justify and deflect? your dodged pretty much everything i said under"misunderstanding"/ "miscommunication". but are you open to the potential you might actually be wrong and may need to further educate yourself so you're not enabling the toxic environments/issues we are speaking on? why is it so much easier to defend "unsolicited advice" given rather than just pause and ask for consent first before sharing? why is the mental load expected of the receivers instead when all we wanted to do was to be able to play a game. if we have questions, its up to us to ask at a pace comfortable for us. if we arent asking, no one should be entitled to force feed information. And i don't understand why people have this mentality and defensiveness. its basic boundaries every human has a right to. why is the idea of "consent" only appicable to physical interations but people dont think twice about mental safety/boundaries. perhaps even look up the BITE model psychological tool.... if people are giving advice unsolicited: that stems from control regardless of intent. also if you take the time to look up articles on psychology aroud unsolicited advice, theres some that will break down some of the unintentional impacts/feelings where it has the total opposite effect than intended/anticipated.
Instead of just defending/justifying yourself or trying to seperate yourself from the more obviously toxic ones as i had described, perhaps sit with it a bit and see the relating coexisting truths and discomforts of them andf figure out where on the spectrum you want to stay sitting on these themes. not all toxic is obvious nor intentional.
But dry bones of "unsolicited" is you are using your body/words to force your ideologies onto another human and expecting them to just be ok with it and remain polite. not really thinking about how common it is for people to dish it left right and center. its not just one of you, its many. and id be considered rude for not followinng and for standing up for myself. as you also just proved, in putting me in a position where i had to overexplain the situation and defend myself because i am not open to receive. you literally turned around and acused me of being the toxic one for not beinng willing to receive. my words are about standing up for me and my body and other players in similar circumstances as me. i shared my truth and experience, and you shot me down based on your own narratives and experiences and literally hypothetical assumptions. combating my reality with your ideologies. My body, my mind, my right to defend. But you still seem stubbornly entitled to the idea of "not all unsolicited advice is bad" like its not still literally forced on us WITHOUT CONSENT..... and we are literally supposed to just like it long as you force it on us "respectfully".... would you apply the same logic you have about words/unsolicited advice to any kind of physical interaction forced on someone?? again, someone just here to play a game and have fun. not sure i mentioned it before, but Gabor Mate (cant get the right "E" with the accent on this keyboard) has a talk on youtube in an interview titled "we live in a toxic culture" part 1 of 5. highly recommend this playlist too and pretty much anything by him. But really highlights the invisible impacts a lot of normalized behaviours have on our bodies and the impact of cultural factors we really need to learn to shift..

you know, I havent been able to bring myself to come try spades again, not only because of the experiences I had in that game, but the defensiveness in this forum and the complicitness shown within the community in the bystander behaviours/enablement all around it too. despite still wanting to come learn and increase my games list on this site. but unless i have people i know already, i just really dont feel comfortable or safe to because i dont want to be subected to that kind of lobby again. or those kind of people where no one really backs up those of us who speak up for ourselves....

If there is anyone who wouldnt mind joining me in a lobby sometime so i can learn handson (I learn best by trial and error and feeling out mechanics, and asking questions as they become relevant/needed) without getting upset with me for the mistakes i am likely to make, please shoot me a message and let me know. chances of me finding local players are slim to none. I'm still hoping i might find those who were in my first lobby again. I amsuper grateful I started with them and had a positive experience and welcoming community that night.

firstly unsolicited advice is toxic, and falls under "invalidating statements". you cant really "disagree" with fact. and i trust my educated opinion on this one.

I feel like there might be some miscommunication here about what unsolicited advice means exactly. English isn't my native language so that might be part of the problem.

I read unsolicited to simply mean not asked for (in advance). Which isn't necessarily the same as being unwanted.

Of course if someone continues to comment, after being told you don't appreciate it. As you describe in your other comment. That's obviously rude and toxic. But I would classify that as more than just unsolicited.

Similarly, when I say advice. That means actually helpful tips and explanations. Rude comments and/or comments that merely point out errors without trying to be helpful or constructive. Are definitely toxic, but are also not advice.

So what I mean by unsolicited advice, is a genuine attempt at giving a tip, without insulting or being rude about it. And given without being asked for, but not despite being told it's unwanted.

I hope that clears up my position. I realize my earlier comment wasn't clear and reads fairly hostile in hindsight.

[Merlin-et]

To Merlin

Bags are rarely bad. It is rare for 1 team to lose simply cause they had 10 bags.

More likely it is cards or sets.

So if u dont try for sets you are allowing luck to dictate wins and losses.

Here is the math most dont understand.

19 bags is -81 pts. -100 +19

If u set a 4 bid, they dont gain 40 and lose 40. -80 pts.

Thus u can go for sets all day long and will most likely win if u can get 1 or 2 sets.

10 bids…u avoid tricks. Take ur ps winners. Duck under opps winners. Until about 6 cards left. Then decide if u need to take.

11 bids or higher. U just go for the set.

Why to set 11 bids? If u are going for set, you wont get set. Simple as that. Most 11 bids the bags can be split. If u get the set u have won a huge advantage.

When u play, play for ur ps best interest. That will go a long way.

I just want you to know I am not ignoring you. I will just be r reading this a few times to try to undrstand. but it all sounds so foreighn to me at the moment and I think at this point i need to go spend more time on some youtube tutorials. I would need too many clarifying questions to understand. And you have just taken more than enough time breaking this down for me. It has given me points to go expand my search on. and to keep in mind as i observe other games and apply it. Math is also not my strong suit by far. I thougt th bags, you wanted to avoid those like the plague since it docs so much each 10th (i thought, confused on thee 19). Thank you so so much for your time.