Choosing the wonder

[PashaPupsik]

In the main rules of the game there is an addiction, that says that players can choose the wonder. Why not add this option? The first player can choose the wonder first and so on. The wonder are mostly the same, this rule won’t do anything t peoples elo (you won’t stop playing good because of this). I will write to the bga site, if you like the idea please, put a like there.

[PashaPupsik]

This is the link of my note
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=210741

[losbrugno]

In the main rules of the game there is an addiction, that says that players can choose the wonder. Why not add this option? The first player can choose the wonder first and so on. The wonder are mostly the same, this rule won’t do anything t peoples elo (you won’t stop playing good because of this). I will write to the bga site, if you like the idea please, put a like there.

The answer is very simple, because in this way the first player to choose will always pick halicarnassos night, which is the best wonder in every player count period. So imagine playing arena and have to deal with hali every game, and if you are unlucky you'll never play it and that would be just obnoxious and frustrating... also the game will be extremely boring and stale.
Yours could be an idea for arena with a ban system implementation, but straight up just picking up the wonder in order is lame.

[Ratincage27]

The wonder are mostly the same. . .

The wonders are actually tremendously different in terms of average score and average place achieved by players, depending on wonder drawn. It's not just Hali either. Alexandria is noticeably worse than 5 wonders and Olympia is considerably worse than 5 wonders. There was a really good post on this message board compiling these stats. It's not just based on our memory or play style that some wonders are better than others.

But sure, no harm in having that option (taking turns picking wonders) outside arena mode in that player who wants competitiveness in addition to fun can just choose to not join games with that option enabled.

[Ratincage27]

Here's the post with the statistics I was referencing: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/269712 ... unbalanced
Though I forgot that this data is in reference to the old edition of the game.

I think most highly skilled players — which I'm defining roughly as usually over 400 ELO — tend to agree that it's more balanced now in the new edition but the differences are still substantial. Guessing for that group, roughly the following tiers would be a popular choice:

• 1st - Hali (night)
• 2nd - Ephesus (n), Babylon (n), Rhodes (n). . .Hali (day**)
• 3rd - Giza (both), Alex (both), Olympia (d). . .Ephesus (d**), Rhodes (d)
• Trash - Olympia (n), Babylon (d)

**Despite not being bad, I can't think of any circumstances under any player count that would make me want to pick these over the superior night sides.

[losbrugno]

I think most highly skilled players — which I'm defining roughly as usually over 400 ELO — tend to agree that it's more balanced now in the new edition but the differences are still substantial. Guessing for that group, roughly the following tiers would be a popular choice:

• 1st - Hali (night)
• 2nd - Ephesus (n), Babylon (n), Rhodes (n). . .Hali (day**)
• 3rd - Giza (both), Alex (both), Olympia (d). . .Ephesus (d**), Rhodes (d)
• Trash - Olympia (n), Babylon (d)

**Despite not being bad, I can't think of any circumstances under any player count that would make me want to pick these over the superior night sides.

The list kinda changes depending on player count because in 3p the meta is very different as well as in 7p.
By the way I'm not here to argue about the list, but about your hate for ephesos day, do you wanna fight over it?
Jokes asides, it's clearly worst in any possible aspect than night side, but there's a huge difference, which is the clay instead of stone for 1st stage. I love it and it goes really well with an aggressive red strategy which generally is not the best idea with ephesos night. So there are some scenarios in which imo is better to play ephesos day, and from my point of view it's something you should know when to play with, like Olympia day, Alex day, cartage day and rhodos day, everyone of which have they own niches (that I love to play and explore stuff with).

[jjgllg]

I think the idea of choosing a wonder is just extremely stupid, because it takes away a lot of the fun that the game has in it's design. I have even seen a board version with cards that were intended for randomizing the wonder selection, so i think this is how it is clearly intended to be. In my opinion the system here is perfect: one problem in face to face games is that people should not have an information on which side your opponents will pick, and in some situations that information is very important. In here you may gamble in the sides people pick, but if they pick the "wrong" for you, there is nothing to save you and that is exactly why it is good. Random drawing just adds to everything in this game.

About different sides, i also think ephesos day has advantages over the night side in some specific scenarios, and there are two scenarios: first is that brick instead of stone makes red play easier but also if there is a lot of demand for stone and you can't count in getting stone "in time". if it goes too late with the wonder building your game is basically doomed. That's when safety comes into play: there have been games where going only for the "optimal" path would get you the last place because unlucky order of cards or unpredictable resource distribution. Playing a "safe" game would get you a solid 2-3 place in case the board plays unlucky, and sometime even 1st if no one gets a perfect game. There are some other wonders too when this comes into a question, but ephesos is most noticeable imo. Also, playing the edifice makes a big difference: not many players can opt for a side that has the same resources required for the same wonder stages: it will be impossible for some players to make it, and that can harm everyone's scoring as the edifice is likely to fail completely.

Still, there are some wonders which i would never pick the "worse" side in almost any situation voluntarily, for an example: hali day (night is so much better) babylon day (very difficult to play compared to night and the night is more fun anyway) Alexandria day (night is obviously better)

Wonders with which the "better" side is very situational:

Giza :might be hard to get enough resources on night side, faster build on day side and easier to play red on day, if red is expected to be heavily contested, but then again night side can have more points available if game gets scrappy and no one gets a solid game, the extra stage and points can help you to win.

Olympia: day side is usually better but if the money will be tight and you think you need it, night is easier. Night is also easier to build on the 1st stage, in some games you want that strategically, even though other stages are worse on night side.

Rhodos: you will always want the night side as it is simply better but if stone is in high demand, you may never get to build the first stage and if that happens you always lose, so sometimes it is better to play safe.

[Ratincage27]

I think most highly skilled players — which I'm defining roughly as usually over 400 ELO — tend to agree that it's more balanced now in the new edition but the differences are still substantial. Guessing for that group, roughly the following tiers would be a popular choice:

• 1st - Hali (night)
• 2nd - Ephesus (n), Babylon (n), Rhodes (n). . .Hali (day**)
• 3rd - Giza (both), Alex (both), Olympia (d). . .Ephesus (d**), Rhodes (d)
• Trash - Olympia (n), Babylon (d)

**Despite not being bad, I can't think of any circumstances under any player count that would make me want to pick these over the superior night sides.

The list kinda changes depending on player count because in 3p the meta is very different as well as in 7p.
By the way I'm not here to argue about the list, but about your hate for ephesos day, do you wanna fight over it?
Jokes asides, it's clearly worst in any possible aspect than night side, but there's a huge difference, which is the clay instead of stone for 1st stage. I love it and it goes really well with an aggressive red strategy which generally is not the best idea with ephesos night. So there are some scenarios in which imo is better to play ephesos day, and from my point of view it's something you should know when to play with, like Olympia day, Alex day, cartage day and rhodos day, everyone of which have they own niches (that I love to play and explore stuff with).

Yeah, I should have specified my list was for 3p.

Fair enough, lol, having a better chance at building Guard, Stables, and Siege is nice for a heavy military strategy. Though in considering both sides, being the only player who can cheaply build Walls in Age II can be quite powerful for military victories, and early gold is helpful for military as well. I frequently have success with a heavy red strategy on Epesos night, taking two red cards in Age II with a trading post and zero bricks.

[Ratincage27]

This isn't the perfect example of my point but shows a heavy red strategy with the Ephesos night's motive to take stone and tendency to have a gold advantage working out in my favor. https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=827729876

[PashaPupsik]

Okay, but 1) it can be only on the day side, 2) let in scythe it can be as an auction, for the coins. Like the player, who starts with Hali will also start with 0 points for 0 coins