Player was able to abandon game in arena once time run into red

[primrose1234]

Frank, you are missing the main point. Expelling has 20s additional time, abandoning doesn't. When you know expelling won't be successful, try to go for the abandon. Especially when the game just started, you don't get Elo anyways.

[rambling_coherently]

It's not unfair to abandon the game. The player who is okay on clock could actually just expel the opponent and have it count as a loss. Choosing to abandon instead is the friendly and polite thing to do compared to the alternative.

I think you should read the earlier responses. The whole point is that the abandon is INSTANT, whereas the expel takes time. It's not "friendly and polite", it's a guaranteed way to make the game not count if you're in a losing position and your opponent goes over on time.

People getting expelled will (in most situations) take an action before the expel finishes.

The option to abandon the game is completely fine, some people use it when 6-700+ Elo players are matched against 1-200 Elo players in Arena, but it probably should not be instant just because one player is over on time.

[xspuipuke]

I'm not sure Frank is beside the point: If you go over your alloted time, it's on you. Period. Whether the opponent tries to expel you and grants you an extra 20 sec or outright abandons the game, doesn't matter as it's your fault. In the former case you lose ELO if you don't react, in the other the game simply doesn't count. To me, it's both fair play.

I am aware the timers for initial selection are way too low but in OP's second game, the abandon happened way after the initial selection.

Don't get me wrong: I'd hate to be expelled or the game being abandoned due to internet connectivity issues but that's the risk I'm taking if entering a real-time game, I guess.

[primrose1234]

I'm not sure Frank is beside the point: If you go over your alloted time, it's on you. Period. Whether the opponent tries to expel you and grants you an extra 20 sec or outright abandons the game, doesn't matter as it's your fault.

This is not exactly the point. Frank argues that abandoning is the friendlier way which is mostly untrue. Abandoning is the safer way for the losing position, especially early on.

[FrankJones]

Frank, you are missing the main point. Expelling has 20s additional time, abandoning doesn't. When you know expelling won't be successful, try to go for the abandon. Especially when the game just started, you don't get Elo anyways.

I hear what you're saying.

I mean, look, generally speaking, I'll just wait and give the player a chance to return and finish the game. But, let's say I have made some rushed/poor moves because I was rigidly sticking to the clock requirements, how much leeway should I give to an opponent who is perhaps using extra time to make better moves rather than making moves within the allowed time?

So, if a player gives an extra 20 seconds (or more) and the opponent is still a ghost, is it then okay for the player to just choose abandon? In other words, I can understand why perhaps there would be some grief about being force-abandoned because the clock is at -0:01. But if the clock is at -0:21, that player has already been given those extra 20 seconds that would have been given with an expulsion attempt.

[FrankJones]

Suppose player B is out of time.

Player A has 3 choices:

1) Expel (which has severe penalties)
2) Abandon (which has minimal penalty
3) Wait.

If option 3 is chosen, player A may eventually need to choose option 1 or option 2.

Suppose player A chooses option 3. Or, chooses option 1 and then player B moves within the 20-second countdown.

What guarantee is there to player A that player B will grant that same grace to player A is player A later runs out of time?

[AlphaPrime1]

Not a single player would select to abandon the game unless he is losing. No one would deny themselves a victory by waiting for 20 seconds after playing for about an hour.

The current abandon system in place for arena completely griefing all new comers. They wouldn't even know what happened. Case in point, me. I had no idea what even happened, much less accounting for it.

[FrankJones]

Not a single player would select to abandon the game unless he is losing. No one would deny themselves a victory by waiting for 20 seconds after playing for about an hour.

The current abandon system in place for arena completely griefing all new comers. They wouldn't even know what happened. Case in point, me. I had no idea what even happened, much less accounting for it.

Well, if the opponent never returns, the two choices are expel or abandon.

Again, though, anyone who is irritated about having an opponent unilaterally abandon a game can just, you know, not run out of time. Use the slowest setting for real time games, or play turn based. "fast-turn-based 24 moves per day" usually plays like real time, but with a cushion in case of emergency of connection failure.

[FrankJones]

Not a single player would select to abandon the game unless he is losing. No one would deny themselves a victory by waiting for 20 seconds after playing for about an hour.

1) I have chosen to abandon a game in which I expected to win, but it was still early. Why? Because I saw no need to expel the player and inflict so much penalty.

2) Well, yes, if the outcome of the game is crystal clear and I am definitely going to win, of course I am not going to abandon the game. Keep in mind, a sore loser can always decide to just stop playing, and eventually the only potion is expulsion, which robs the winning player of some of the deserved Elo.

3) Where did this assumption come from that a player who has run out of time will suddenly return and/or play faster when the expulsion warning is triggered? In my experience, when a player goes into the red on clock, that player often does not play or return within 20 additional seconds. And, how would you suggest people handle turn-based games in which a player runs into the red on clock?

[AlphaPrime1]

Frank you don't understand how this works. People who abandon the game grief players, not because they left, but because they are thinking, since they expect 20 more seconds after warning. What's worse is that people can do it during opening, if they don't like their opening hand they can just safely abandon the game, since more often than not people run into red on timer during initial draft. Oh it's so dumb, and completely ruins arena.

Do you understand the meaning of griefing? Griefers doesn't care for enjoyment of the game they only care about harming new players.

TM and many other BGA games easily put players under red on timer because of the terrible clock system, which is laughable comparing to any format of timer. Adding this abandon exploit, it compounds BGA timer problem. You think bga timer is the same as timer in chess so oh just play faster, it is not. I see so many thread complaints about the timer, this is not new. But with this new discovery, it makes the timer problem so much worse. If you can't see that it's on you.

And yeah why in the world would it setup to be instant???? And why there is no warning for this option? Like oh hey if you run into red on timer, the game can be abandoned instantly. It's an obvious game design oversight. You can't even think an exploit this perfect. It feels more like a designer backdoor than a real option, it's a hack.

You know what's going to happen? Anyone who have read this would try it, because in actually this exploit is super cool, it's a real get out jail free card, not just for TM, ANY GAME, oh just chilling on a new game and learning but winning and having a good time? Bam you are gone, wahahaha. And you will damn sure they are not doing it to be polite. It's a bona fide ex machina.