Double bluff or promise bluff?

[Kaznaka]

replay: https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... s=90939856;


I've circled the clue in question. It touched w4. Would this be a promise that I have w2 w3 in my finesse, or would it be a double bluff? The majority of people here would say promise bluff. However, consider if Tyrion had w1 next to r1. Wouldn't the clue be exactly the same? Why should Tyrion stop digging for the w1, especially if he sees w2 w3 in my hand? The answer is Tyrion would know he's in the bluff seat and w4 is 1-away. The question is, what should I know or think, and what takes priority? Now what if Azxl wanted to perform a double bluff?

I ended up blind playing and bombing the w2 because I thought it was a double bluff. The logic is, I have to play to tell Tyrion not to dig for the w1.

[Silene]

thyrion wouldn't keep digging because it looks like bluff to him. layered can only be assumed if someone deliberately left the response to him. i.e. if whoowhee had given white clue and azxl did not play to fill in for w1 - only then thyrion can be sure to really have w1 and keep digging after first play isn't it.

in general: layered clues can only be given with a gap between players / in reverse. when a wrong player had a chance to respond and bomb. (some weird exceptions might remain).
this is necessary unless you want to play with a convention without bluff which i think on bga is rare in top players.

[Kaznaka]

thyrion wouldn't keep digging because it looks like bluff to him. layered can only be assumed if someone deliberately left the response to him. i.e. if whoowhee had given white clue and azxl did not play to fill in for w1 - only then thyrion can be sure to really have w1 and keep digging after first play isn't it.

yes, sorry I edited my first post. I understand that in Tyrion's PoV, the w4 is 1-away, and he wouldn't keep digging. The question is, what about my PoV? This is the crux of the matter. From my PoV, the w4 is not 1-away; therefore, it cannot be a regular bluff. If the convention is to assume promise bluff, then you wouldn't be able to perform double bluffs with a color that's different from the first blind play.

[Silene]

you wouldn't be able to perform double bluffs with a color that's different from the first blind play.

correct. double bluff is when the first response does not reveal the clue to be a bluff.
i.e. 3 is clued, non-matching 2 is played
i.e. w is clued on w3, a multi plays
i.e. w is clued on a multi, a white plays.

but sometimes known negatives do reveal it to be bluff even in these 3 examples. so be wary

but when the clue reveals bluff, then it can be assumed only 1 card was missing. if you see more than 1 missing card, then you can assume those are in your hand. promised.

[springiest]

personally i think it is a Double Bluff, with any unrelated playable card (other than w1) on your finesse slot. the exception is if u have any CLUED white cards (or, u have two clued 3s and someone else has w2 clued with either white or 2), in which case u can assume u have w2 & w3 clued.
be wary though - your w2/w3 may not necessarily be in the "correct" order, so dont rush into playing your left white card immediately after w1 gets played!

[SchengW]

Principle 1: Always trust your team mate's clue is valid, until bomb.
Principle 2: Blind play only if the clue receiver or someone else would bomb without your blind play to reveal the bluff.

in your POV of this case: tyrion blind play r1 for w4. Has the bluff been revealed? Yes it is already revealed becasue r1 does not connect to w4 and uuyyuu wont try to bomb any card. So you dont have to bomb.

Secondly, how can this w clue be valid as a bluff? (Principle 1) it can only be valid as a promise bluff which promises your slot 1 as w2 and slot 2 as w3, because promise bluff must promise the exact finesse positon of the promised card. It cannot be layer after some playable card, otherwise it would cause more problem by discarding chops in the future.

When should you do a second blind play? You do a second blind play only if the first blind play hasnt reveal the bluff yet and the clue receiver still might bomb (Principle 2) like if tyrion blind play r1 for a number 2 clue and that 2 is not r2, then you need to blind play again to tell the clue receiver. And after both blind plays the clue receiver knows that his 2 is neither r nor the color u blind played.

[Romain672]

It's two conflicting conventions.
Hgroup goes for double bluff (r1+second bluff), my knowledge of bga goes for promise bluff (w2+w3).


But Silene and SchengW gave what is normally done on bga. Note that the card in question w2+w3 are considered saved, so if they goes into chop (3rd+4th card), you are supposed to save them (discard the 2nd card next)

You are allowed to gentleman's discard them (ie discard them to show another player they got that same card saved/in finesse position) unless they can't deduce if you knew you got w3 or not because from their pov, they could hold the other copy of w3 when the clue was given.
[And that cause troubles when you start discarding w3 in chop, because now everyone else hold w3 in one to two differents positions if that was a mistake.]


I think hgroup's position is stronger though since they are much more commun, and make the bluffed card known. Here in Uuyyuu's position, they don't know if they hold w2 and w3 isn't gotten, if they hold w3 and w2 is gotten and w3 isn't, or if they hold w4 and w2 and w3 is gotten. As a result, their clue will be worst since they don't know the full state of the game (per example if they use the last clue, maybe that will cause w3 to be discarded).

You would think bga's conventions here are simpler, but when you start to think about edge cases, that's not the case anymore.