2-player Banlist Discussion

[EuroGamez]

I made this a separate topic from the other banlist as that one is very focused on 4-player games. Which makes sense. Agricola is great as a 4-player game. But personally I don't have the patience to play 4-player games online as it's 80% waiting and doing nothing and 20% playing (no I didn't do the maths incorrectly).

I think there are quite a few of us here on BGA who prefer almost exclusivly 2-player games as you get to actually play more, and games are resonably short, so that you can start one without having to know if you're gonna be free for the next couple of hours. Often games can take only 30 min as one player might concede when there is no hope.

There is a problem with some games though, that they are too luck-based as some 1st pick cads are just so increadibly strong that they are nearly completely unbeatable. A player with a 200 lower ELO will easily beat an experienced player with these cards. So I propose a dedicated 2-player banlist as an option. (I can also add this to the bug-report suggestion, but I thought this thread could be good to discuss which of the cards should be on there).

Some cards that are banned in 4 player competetive are also not really a big problem in 2-player games, e.g. passing cards, and could be taken off the ban list.

Some cards might seems very mild but since 2-player is a zero sum game it plays differently and the tree spaces above Fishing: Reed Bank, Clay Pit and Forest are increadibly strong to hammer. Getting huge upside while doing this just makes those stategies too good and leads to unfun and one-sided games. Also 2-room strategies are not really a thing in 2-player games so cards that work with strategies leaving massive resource piles also don't worry me.

Using the statistics from the thead: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44912
as well as a lot of experience from playing, here are my suggestions for a 2-player specific banlist:

-=ADD=-
Occupation:
Job Contract
Fish Farmer
Pioneer
Geologist

Minor:
Wood Palisades


-=REMOVE=-
Occupation:
-

Minor:
Big Country
Cross-Cut Wood

[derided dan]

It would be great to have a 2p-specific banlist. It's nice to play this game as a quick little chess match and there are some cards that totally warp this version of the game.

In the existing banlist, you could probably remove Informant, walking boots, maybe pulverizer plow, and Caravan, as none of these cards are as game-breaking in 2p.

I think the only occ you posted that absolutely needs to be banned in 2p is Pioneer. Geologist, Fish Farmer, Wood Barterer, and probably Shoreforester are a tier below, in the sense that if you have any of these you should almost always win, especially if you go first, but going second makes them a bit worse and against a skilled opponent, none of them are as guaranteed a W as Pioneer is.

For improvements, Brewery Pond, Cesspit, and Job Contract should definitely be banned, and maybe Scales.

[MunchkinXQ]

Second this. Two player is quite a different game where cards power is concerned.

[alexwjb]

I think this is a good idea and there is no technical reason it can't be done. I can't guarantee it will happen, but I personally think it makes a lot of sense.

I would suggest Lumin's statistics are the most natural place to start for a specific 2-player banlist. Please continue and curate a sensible list!

One thing - I am against Wood Palisades being included. EuroGamez I know you are convinced it is banworthy in general, but that is separate to the 2-player point. The goal should be to make sure the 2-player specific banlist deals with issues specific to 2-player games.

And also: bear in mind that we can also tweak what is banned depending on whether a game has Additional Action Spaces enabled or not.

[flower2886]

Going strictly by win rate would probably not be my preferred way of doing 2P bans. I think cards that are just frustrating to play again, and this especially in the early game are better candidates to be banned.

- Pioneer
- Brewery Pond
- Fish Farmer
- Job Contract

Are very high on my wish list to be banned. Just not fun to play against.

[Rudi1976]

I agree with Flowers list. Pioneer is absolutly broken in 2p games, Job Contract especially with any DayLab combo, but also on its own is rediculous.

I disagree with some arguments above suggesting Geologist or wood pallisades as bans. Obviously those are good cards, but id rather have a short list of bans. I Would argue, that Id rather have Wood Barterer over Geologist for example and as wood is always contested its hard to massively score with wood pallisades. Sure there might be games with lots of wood, but same applies to grain and we dont have beer table as banned card.

Just my 2 cent

[Loebas86]

I agree with most of the above.

Just my obervations/opinion.

Fish farmer is very strong, but has the annoying side effect that it is much stronger for the starting player. If you go second you are basically obliged to draft it just to deny your opponent a winning occupation, although it is much weaker for second player and you have to pass on other good coocupations.

Geologist is strong but I think it is comparable to clay puncher. I don't hear anyone complain about clay puncher. Geologist might provide a bit more clay over the course of the game but clay puncher gives a vbetter chance to grab the fiirst fireplace.

Some cards are much stronger in AAS, for example pavior. In standard format it is good if you can get an early stone. Otherwise it is nothing specual. Someone suggested to unban informant, which is fine for standard format but it is very strong in AAS.

Job contract is very strong indeed, but unlike fish farmer it does not give an advantage to the starting player. Therefore it feels a bit more balanced to me. I wouldn't mind a ban though.

I would not ban cesspit just becaouse it is so interesting to play (against)

I don't think Scales is overpowered. The food is nice but it requires a lot of work to get it and it doesn't always work out. Moreover, I just like Scales a lot so I would be sad if it is banned.

[derided dan]

I forgot Collector, which would also be nice if it were banned bc I just hate the idea of a "give me all the things" button your opponent can press at any time

[flower2886]

Some cards will, by design, always be stronger than others. In CCGs and similar games, banning too many cards at once is usually a mistake because it’s very hard to predict all the downstream effects. Cards that were previously just below the power curve can suddenly become top-tier once stronger options are removed.

Fish Farmer is obviously much stronger as P1 — no disagreement there — but that’s true for most occupations. In many 2-player games, P1 gets to play occupations in stages 1–2, while P2 often only gets one occupation down at most. That’s just part of how the game is structured.

That said, Fish Farmer crosses the line for me because it’s oppressive. It reduces interaction and makes the game less interesting. That’s my main criterion for a ban: not just power level, but whether the card takes the fun out of the game.

A card like Grocer or Collector is different. They’re strong — maybe very strong — but they still leave room for an actual game to be played.

[EuroGamez]

Agree that Collector and Grocer are not really a problem in the same degree as Fish Farmer or Job Contract that require no setup, just 10-20 food with no downside.

Fine to play vs Wood Palisades, no no need to ban that. But the others still relevant imo.