How much luck is involved in TM?

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ArchDevious
Posts: 69
Joined: 09 October 2023, 23:05

How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by ArchDevious »

Terraforming Mars is rated as a 3 out of 5 luck based game on BGA. 7 Wonders on the other hand is a 2, so considered to have less variance. The top players on TM can hit an elo above 800 while the randomness is 7 wonders causes no one to even reach 600, despite way larger player pool, which allows for more 100 elo floor players to boost up everyone else. So it seems to me that there is less luck involved in this game compared to other "3 luck" games on this website. Curious what others think.

(Another game Arc Nova has a luck rating of 1 and way more 800+ players, so there must be some correlation)

edit: deleted a paragraph that was not relevant to the main point
Last edited by ArchDevious on 01 May 2026, 15:50, edited 2 times in total.
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dizinovi
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Joined: 29 January 2026, 22:23

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by dizinovi »

I don't really know the other 2 games you mentioned so I don't know how difficult or skilled they are, but we can agree that a game can be very skill-based and very luck-based at the same time, so maybe this game is just higher on all those criteria, but the skill/luck ratio is different. It's hard to put every game only on a scale from 1 to 5 regarding skill and luck. But for the reference, many great players here who can reach 800 with a bit of a lucky streak often drop below 700, does the same happen in the other 2 games? I think that is what a luck factor should be based on, how far you drop or rise above your average rating. Also, in this game a bad decision can win you the game you'd otherwise lose sometimes, and by bad I mean a thing that 9-10 out 10 top players wouldn't do, so is that also the case in the other 2 games? My example for this is picking preludes that draw cards while you already kinda have a good hand and better preludes to choose, and then in those extra cards you find a pack that wins the game on the spot, which would otherwise end in the opponent's hand making you lose on the spot.
Andrei3009
Posts: 271
Joined: 16 November 2023, 21:55

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by Andrei3009 »

There is a difference between the level of randomness and the level of skill in a game. I'll describe both.

Luck is how many random events there are in the game — in our case, corporation and starting hand + draft in TfM, versus wonder + draft + opponent's actions (since there are more than two players).

2P TfM wins, because the corporation matters much less than the wonder, and there's no third opponent.

TfM has a lot more player agency, which in my opinion is a very important factor that allows experienced players to win through understanding card strength and the overall game state. Therefore, TfM is much more complex and skill-intensive.

My verdict is that 2p TfM is less random and far more skilled than 7 Wonders. With 3+ players, the games are almost equally random, but TfM is still more skilled
Andrei3009
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Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by Andrei3009 »

dizinovi wrote: 01 May 2026, 10:27 I don't really know the other 2 games you mentioned so I don't know how difficult or skilled they are, but we can agree that a game can be very skill-based and very luck-based at the same time, so maybe this game is just higher on all those criteria, but the skill/luck ratio is different. It's hard to put every game only on a scale from 1 to 5 regarding skill and luck. But for the reference, many great players here who can reach 800 with a bit of a lucky streak often drop below 700, does the same happen in the other 2 games? I think that is what a luck factor should be based on, how far you drop or rise above your average rating. Also, in this game a bad decision can win you the game you'd otherwise lose sometimes, and by bad I mean a thing that 9-10 out 10 top players wouldn't do, so is that also the case in the other 2 games? My example for this is picking preludes that draw cards while you already kinda have a good hand and better preludes to choose, and then in those extra cards you find a pack that wins the game on the spot, which would otherwise end in the opponent's hand making you lose on the spot.
I don't know why you would draw more cards when you already have a good hand, especially since the cards you draw could equally as likely lose you the game, because the next cards your opponent draws will be overpowered. But sometimes it can win you the game.
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Kulikk
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Joined: 05 April 2024, 17:32

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by Kulikk »

Clearly Terraforming Mars should have 5/5 luck rating
FrankJones
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Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by FrankJones »

Wow. It doesn't even seem as though anyone has ever reached 600 Elo in 7 Wonders. There are games in which people have been able to reach an Elo 100_ points higher than an Elo anyone can maintain, but that's not even the case in 7 Wonders. I often felt as though some unlucky events could completely derail a 7 Wonders game for me. This seems to be confirmation.

Before I had looked at the Elo leaderboard and historical graphs, I would have agreed that 7 Wonders is a lot more luck-based than TFM. This information reinforces that belief.
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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by RicardoRix »

Overall I think you're right. The value '3' for luck on TfM seems too high.

A few things to consider:

Luck mitigation is a skill itself, and easily overlooked.

7-wonders is a much shorter game. With 1 decision for wonder side A/B, and 18 decisions in the draft. The 'space' for decision making is also much more limited, don't know how to describe that better. Ark Nova and TfM are much longer games, and have much more to offer to allow skill level to be turned into a win, overturning any luck bias.

The luck and other ratings displayed for a given game on BGA are simply chosen by the game developer, so you will get very different values and are not consistent. Sometimes these numbers are overlooked and/or misinterpreted. The wording changes slightly, like the label 'interaction' is called 'diplomacy' code side. Everyone will have a different idea about what luck is and how it effects things.
FrankJones
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Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by FrankJones »

Agreed, I would give TFM a raring of luck 2. Starting hand + Draft are the two luck aspects of the game, and as you noted, strong players have ample opportunity to mitigate the bad luck in those aspects of the game.

7 Wonders? Some of the player boards are just not good. And then, what if player B decides to bury a crucial card for player C? Now player C will never have the production necessary for a good score, and player B may have taken a suboptimal action in doing so. Player A benefits, and player C is screwed, and there was nothing player C could do about it.

Sometimes the 7-card hand will be unavoidably bad for one player. The mechanisms for dealing with this are somewhat limited. Eventually, 2 cards will need to be played from each of the 3 hands dealt out, so no matter how well a player sets up a plan/strategy, it may be the case that one of the 3 hands has too many needed cards and one of the hands has 1 or no useful ones.

And then there's the .... I forget what the in-game mechanism is. When you pay a neighbor for a resource. In one game (home game), one opponent kept buying only from the other player. I had no chance. At the first opportunity, I buried a crucial card for that player. That player was annoyed. I said, "well, you made sure I couldn't win, what else were you expecting me to do? Next time buy equally from your opponents, or at least maybe 40/60 or something."

The player who is getting short-changed in this manner has on control over this. If one player wants to always buy from the same player, oh well. The inherent nature of the game leads to kingmaking.

Note that 7 wonders Duel has a high Elo of 895, and 34 players at or near 600. Even though that game has a good bit of randomness when a new card id flipped over.
Yahyra
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Joined: 06 January 2016, 03:33

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by Yahyra »

I opine 7 wonders involves more luck than TM indeed; it also doesn't help that the minimum player count in 7 wonders is three. More players, more RNG (random number generation)?. I've played 7 wonders duel and the newer one (with the dice?) and those seem less luck based, more strategy based I think (again, it is 2 player, so there's more zero sum game strategy involved). Great topic, thanks all.
Andrei3009
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Joined: 16 November 2023, 21:55

Re: How much luck is involved in TM?

Post by Andrei3009 »

FrankJones wrote: 01 May 2026, 12:48 Wow. It doesn't even seem as though anyone has ever reached 600 Elo in 7 Wonders. There are games in which people have been able to reach an Elo 100_ points higher than an Elo anyone can maintain, but that's not even the case in 7 Wonders. I often felt as though some unlucky events could completely derail a 7 Wonders game for me. This seems to be confirmation.

Before I had looked at the Elo leaderboard and historical graphs, I would have agreed that 7 Wonders is a lot more luck-based than TFM. This information reinforces that belief.
It doesn't change anything but there were 600 elo players in 7w; around one player per arena season. Highers achieved Elo as far as i know is 655 by WonderFull Place https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=84 ... n=prestige
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