2-player Banlist Discussion

[alexwjb]

I want to broaden this discussion and add some statistics into it.

Firstly: I referred to Lumin's statistics. The most recent are here.

I combined his last three sets of statistics looking only at 2-player games. You can see results here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

In 2025, Lumin had separate data for games with the strong banlist on or off. In the previous stats drops, he didn't. For this analysis, I combined all his data for banlists on or off. I also added a column with whether a card is currently in the strong, weak or neither banlist.

A few things become immediately clear.

- Several people have mentioned Job Contract and Pioneer. These are, indeed, the number 1 and 2 highest PWR cards in 2-player games, even including the cards on the strong banlist. I think it is therefore obvious that these two should be included in a 2-player specific banlist.
- Brewery Pond should also be included. Its PWR is basically the same as Pioneer.
- The next highest PWR card is Mattock, I assume because clay is so valuable in 2 player games.
- The current strong banlist, as suspected, does not make a lot of sense for 2-player games. There are three cards on the strong banlist - Child Ombudsman, Walking Boots and Big Country - that are in the bottom 10% of cards by PWR in 2-player games.
- It's also worth considering the weak banlist. Of the 16 cards with the lowest PWR, only one (Furniture Carpenter) is on the weak banlist. And some cards which are very viable in 4-player games, like Stork's Nest, are essentially unplayable in 2-player games.
- Note: the number of deals for each card in the dataset is very different and affected by when they were added, if they are in banlists, etc. Conclusions for cards with fewer deals are inherently less certain than others.

As I think I mentioned before: I do not play 2-player games, so these lists very much need to come from the community of players who actually do play these games. But to get the ball rolling, here is a suggestion of 2-player specific banlists. Please could those who regularly play 2-player games suggest whatever changes you like to this, with reasons. For example: I can't comment on how "annoying" cards are in 2 player, which is for sure a relevant factor.

STRONG BANLIST

Keep all cards on strong banlist that are in the top 30% of 2-player cards by PWR (see previous point about variance), that is

Teacher's Desk
Royal Wood
Shaving Horse
Begging Student
Carpenter's Bench
Hayloft Barn
Carpenter's Hammer
Caravan
Nightworker
Craft Brewery
Recruitment

Add the following cards which are extremely high PWR in 2-player games

Job Contract
Pioneer
Brewery Pond
Mattock
Chick Stable
Tumbrel
Reap Hook
Fish Farmer

Remove all cards from strong banlist outside of this. That is:

Work Certificate
Freshman
Cross-Cut Wood
Pulverizer Plow
Writing Chamber
Chapel
Tree Guard
Informant
Garden Designer
Guest Room
Carriage Trip
Summer House
Child Ombudsman
Walking Boots
Big Country

WEAK BANLIST

Keep the current weak banlist, except for Stable Manure which has much higher PWR than all the other weak banlist cards in 2-player games:

Cattle Farm
Tree Inspector
Oven Site
Silage
Lifting Machine
Perennial Rye
Curator
Blackberry Farmer
Catcher
Sugar Baker
Elephantgrass Plant
Furniture Carpenter

Add the following cards which have extremely low PWR in 2-player games (<0.15)

Fodder Chamber
Autumn Mother
Sculpture
Facades Carving
Heart of Stone
Stork's Nest
Future Building Site
Growing Farm

[derided dan]

Thank you for doing this! The weak banlist looks fine.

For the strong banlist, I agree with others above that for a first iteration we should not add too many cards, just the most egregious. I think we have established that Pioneer, Job Contract, and Brewery Pond give such an unfair advantage in almost all games that they should definitely be added, and flower has made a strong argument for Fish Farmer to be banned as well.

Mattock, Chick Stable, Tumbrel, and Reap Hook are all very strong cards, but maybe not quite annoying or strong enough to be banned. There are other cards like Brook, Hardware Store, and Trident that come to mind that just feel more annoying to play against. For Mattock, I don't see why it should be banned if cards like Geologist, Clay Puncher, and Cesspit are not.

I think it would be very silly if some of the most annoying cards in the game: Freshman, Tree Guard, Garden Designer, Writing Chamber, Chapel, Summer House are removed from the banlist because of PWR considerations.

If Caravan stays on the banlist, I also don't see why Guest Room shouldn't as well.

The other cards mentioned, it seems fine if they are removed.

This entire conversation also changes significantly if we are considering 2p games with AAS, but in my experience there are so few players that play in Competitive mode with AAS anyway that AAS-related concerns can probably be ignored.

I will make another plea for Collector to be added, because of the annoyance factor when people spam it in the early game. I think it is significantly more annoying to play against than Grocer for this reason. With Grocer you at least have to "earn" the stuff.

[EuroGamez]

Here are my changes

Banned already/suggested bans:
Mattok - does not need a ban (not nearly as strong as Geologist)
Recruitment - does not need a ban (at least not in AAS)
Craft Brewery - not that powerful, keep it on the banlist or take it off, it will only be very good in some very speicific games. Farming Early in 2-p is very hard. (it's 150th on your list...)
Chick Stable - not opressive, and mostly only really good if you get to play it R1 (as it fixes feeding S1) I think should stay off the banlist, it's not an imidiate 1st pick over other strong cards.
Reap Hook - Good but also not opressive (keep it or leave it)
Tumbrel - Another card that is only occassionally good (i'd keep this off the ban-list, not opressive).

Other cards definitly keep


Add to new ban-list:
Geologist - Even though it's "only" ranked 38th this card inject so much of the most rare resource in a 2 player game with no downside.


Do not remove these cards:

Freshman (this card is too good in 2-player too) Free occ playing on sow/bake with it's own unblockable space. ALso when you get a combo it's insanly busted.
Chapel - Also completly busted in 2-player, every time you take the action it's a 6 point swing.
Tree Guard - DO absolutely not remove. This card warps the game completely and the player who has this wins if they also get to 3 FM first or with AAS as there are 2 wood spaces now.
Informant - still busted in 2-p especially with AAS (put also a few cards give 1 store on minor)
Guest Room - do not remove, still way to good as early actions is the strongest thing in 2-player.
Garden Designer - This is also way to strong keep banned.

The other cards I am happy to have removed from the lsit.


Brook is also very good. But I find that cards that only provide a limited (but efficient) amount of food are not as opressive to play against. Job contract is not just a food provider it combos with waaaay to many things which is why that's very different to Brook or any of the other cards mentioned above.
I will respond about the "weak" cards in a later post when i've had the time to go through them.


Summary:

Keep banned:

Carpenter's Hammer
Chapel
Shaving Horse
Freshman
Craft Teacher
Braggart
Caravan
Carpenter's Bench
Hayloft Barn
Informant
Carriage Trip
Teacher's Desk
Craft Brewery
Garden Designer
Tree Guard
Nightworker
Trade Teacher
Begging Student
Guest Room
Royal Wood

Also add:

Job Contract
Pioneer
Brewery Pond
Fish Farmer
Geologist


(some of these occs might actually be +4 or +3 players so keeping them off the 2-player banlist makes the most sense for clarity) I've remove all of those cards to not have a bunch of non-essential text to read.

[Rudi1976]

First of all thx Alex for the effort. I played a good amount of 2p tournaments and would comment your list like this:

STRONG BANLIST

Keep all cards on strong banlist that are in the top 30% of 2-player cards by PWR (see previous point about variance), that is

Teacher's Desk
Royal Wood
Shaving Horse
Begging Student
Carpenter's Bench
Hayloft Barn
Carpenter's Hammer
Caravan
Nightworker
Craft Brewery
Recruitment

Agreed! Keep them all banned


Add the following cards which are extremely high PWR in 2-player games

Job Contract
Pioneer
Brewery Pond
Fish Farmer

Those are all powerhouse cards and automatic 1st picks in a draft. Id recommend adding these to the banlist.


Mattock
Chick Stable
Tumbrel
Reap Hook

All 4 excellent cards, but not ban worthy imo.


Some context: Mattock is indeed very good in 2p games because of the lack of clay, but its no where broken on its own. Tumbrel is in 90pct of the cases just played for the 2 food and rarely better with combos like Young Farmer or something similiar. If we ban tumbrel, we would also need to ban Flail, beer tap etc. Im with flower on the premise to not ban too many cards as a start.

Remove all cards from strong banlist outside of this. That is:

Work Certificate
Freshman
Cross-Cut Wood
Writing Chamber
Chapel
Tree Guard
Garden Designer
Carriage Trip
Summer House

Those all need to stay banned, either because of power or annoyance.


Pulverizer Plow
Informant (with no AAS)
Guest Room

These 3 would be certainly strong cards, but Id like to see more data to determine if we should ban these.


Child Ombudsman
Walking Boots

Unban. Both rather weak in 2p games, but might have their moments in late growth games, to high opportunity cost.


Big Country

Put this on the weak Banlist.


WEAK BANLIST

I agree fully with the additions.

[alexwjb]

Thanks. Just to keep this easier to track, let me amend the strong banlist proposal in line with latest comments. I agree with derided dan that we are really talking about games without Additional Action Spaces here, since there are very few games played with both Additional Action Spaces and the strong banlist enabled.

Add to banlist
Job Contract
Pioneer
Brewery Pond
Fish Farmer

Keep banned
Carpenter's Hammer
Chapel
Shaving Horse
Freshman
Caravan
Carpenter's Bench
Hayloft Barn
Carriage Trip
Teacher's Desk
Craft Brewery
Garden Designer
Tree Guard
Nightworker
Begging Student
Royal Wood
Writing Chamber
Summer House

Remove from banlist
Child Ombudsman
Walking Boots
Big Country

Not available in 2-player games anyway, so remove from 2-player specific banlist for clarity
Craft Teacher
Braggart
Estate Master
Trade Teacher
Little Peasant
Weakling

Mixed opinions: more views please!
Pulverizer Plow
Informant
Guest Room
Work Certificate
Recruitment
Cross-Cut Wood
Geologist [not currently banned]
Small Potter's Oven [there are no stats on this]

[flower2886]

I think we should keep it at those 4 bans and monitor.

Removing those 3 guards is fine , doesn't add much to the game either way.

[lezurichois]

Hey, I played a significant amount of 2p games for a while, mostly without AAS and with the strong banlist on. I have played other formats --no banlist, AAS-- but less regularly.

For a banlist targeted at 2p, non-AAS games, I like Alex's proposal to ban Job contract, pioneer and brewery pond. These three cards seem definitely a bit too strong, in any game. I actually don't think that fish farmer is stronger than grocer or wood barterer. It is easy to play though, so maybe at lower-ranked table the card offers an easy path to the win. Geologist can be strong in games without clay injection, but it is definitely a tier below in my opinion. There are other cards that help you overcome the clay shortage.

I don't really understand why people want tree guard to stay on the strong-card banlist. I have played many games against Caravan and found the card to be pretty weak because of the very high food cost.

You could also remove recruitment from the banlist. It does not strike me as too strong, as any growth cheat. Cross-cut wood should be fine. since it is a passing minor and you can always hold on to it, such that the wood economy cannot be wrecked by a single player.

Informant could be strong with an early stone injection, but I think it should be much weaker than cards such as wood barterer or grocer that people don't want to ban

I could see how pulverizer plow could be annoying, by letting you block your opponent on clay while plowing.

Guest room seems fun, but again I never really supported a ban in the 4p format.

[EuroGamez]

Thanks. Just to keep this easier to track, let me amend the strong banlist proposal in line with latest comments. I agree with derided dan that we are really talking about games without Additional Action Spaces here, since there are very few games played with both Additional Action Spaces and the strong banlist enabled.

Add to banlist
Job Contract
Pioneer
Brewery Pond
Fish Farmer

Keep banned
Carpenter's Hammer
Chapel
Shaving Horse
Freshman
Caravan
Carpenter's Bench
Hayloft Barn
Carriage Trip
Teacher's Desk
Craft Brewery
Garden Designer
Tree Guard
Nightworker
Begging Student
Royal Wood
Writing Chamber
Summer House

Remove from banlist
Child Ombudsman
Walking Boots
Big Country

Not available in 2-player games anyway, so remove from 2-player specific banlist for clarity
Craft Teacher
Braggart
Estate Master
Trade Teacher
Little Peasant
Weakling

Mixed opinions: more views please!
Pulverizer Plow
Informant
Guest Room
Work Certificate
Recruitment
Cross-Cut Wood
Geologist [not currently banned]
Small Potter's Oven [there are no stats on this]

I think this looks good but I think Summer House can definitely come off, with no RSF action in 2-player gettign 2 stone to play this early never really happens and renovating is probably the worst action in 2 player games. Highly inefficient and you tend to always fill your baord so empty space isn't a problem. You ranked the card 450th... so it's definitly not banworthy in 2-player games.

I'd also want to make the note that the banlist should be balanced to work for AAS gaems as well as this is very common in 2-player games. I feel like around 50% of the 3-player games I play have it turned on, while it's only once in a blue moon that it's on for 4 player games.

With that said I think:
Informant - stays banned (cause AAS makes it too good)
Recruitment - unban, 167th on the list

Another part of 2-player games is the zero-sum nature. It's good to take an action not because it's good for you but because it's bad for your oponent. That makes hording food, sweaping animals, etc more viable. So with that:
Guest Room - keep banned

Cards that just don't du much:
Work Certificate - only picks up a few resources but way too late to matter, safe to unban 230th on your list
Guest Room - Reed being very hard to get getting rooms early with just 1 reed is too strong.

Just ban it:
Geologist - too much clay for no cost, 38th on the list.

Pulverizer Plow:
Good, but you just lack the actions to hammer Clay early, and Plowing isn't very contesten in 2-play making this a lot less good (compared to how amazing it is in -player) 228th on the list.

About the "2 food for 1 wood" minors, they are just that. Very good Stage 1 minor for SP nothign more, efficient early game, harmless. Keep unbanned despite whatever rank they might have.


Next post I'll get around to looking at the WEAK cards...

[EuroGamez]

WEAK CARDS

These can be taken off the "weak" list to ease readability, they are all 3/4+:

Sequestrator
Minstrel
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Game Catcher
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Twin Researcher
Resource Analyzer
Forest Campaigner
Loudmouth
Pig Stalker


Of the other cards that are on the weak list, I think these are potentially playable in 2-player games as fisning points late game can be tough, and wood is always good:
Tree Inspector
Furniture Carpenter
Curator


As for new addition to the weak list, i picked these from the bottom ranked cards: With over 1000 gaems I've never cared to pic/play these:

Growing Farm
Future Building Site
Heart of Stone
Facades Carving
Autumn Mother

[alexwjb]

Re the 2p strong banlist: it seems like the following changes would be supported by pretty much everyone:

Ban: Job Contract, Pioneer, Brewery Pond, Fish Farmer

Unban: Child Ombudsman, Walking Boots, Big Country

And remove 4+ cards from the list for clarity.

I appreciate some players may want more changes, but it doesn't seem clear enough based on these responses, and in general we should lean towards keeping things as they are.


For the weak banlist, I previously made this suggestion:

Keep the current weak banlist, except for Stable Manure which has much higher PWR than all the other weak banlist cards in 2-player games:

Cattle Farm
Tree Inspector
Oven Site
Silage
Lifting Machine
Perennial Rye
Curator
Blackberry Farmer
Catcher
Sugar Baker
Elephantgrass Plant
Furniture Carpenter

Add the following cards which have extremely low PWR in 2-player games (<0.15)

Fodder Chamber
Autumn Mother
Sculpture
Facades Carving
Heart of Stone
Stork's Nest
Future Building Site
Growing Farm

Two people have agreed with this. EuroGamez suggested that we do not ban:

- Fodder Chamber, Sculpture or Stork's Nest (all currently unbanned)
- Tree Inspector, Furniture Carpenter, Curator (all currently banned)

Any advances on the weak banlist?