Snake Opening Discussion Thread

[-MightyW-]

We had a discussion on discord about the game theory behind snake.

I think there is a design flaw in snake which encourages no one but the 4th seat to start. This leads to start player retaining start allot. So they often retain start while not even having to click the button. Even if the 4th seat does start, they are second the next round. With the extra food included this is for certain a buff to the first seat.

FAhoeve proposed a DCBAABCD snake opening to combat this and i think this makes way more sense from a game theory perspective. I am not a guru but I would really encourage steering away from snake next season.

[hentheben]

We had a discussion on discord about the game theory behind snake.

I think there is a design flaw in snake which encourages no one but the 4th seat to start. This leads to start player retaining start allot. So they often retain start while not even having to click the button. Even if the 4th seat does start, they are second the next round. With the extra food included this is for certain a buff to the first seat.

FAhoeve proposed a DCBAABCD snake opening to combat this and i think this makes way more sense from a game theory perspective. I am not a guru but I would really encourage steering away from snake next season.

Interesting! I definitely prefer snake over standard. Is DCBAABCD reverse turn order for the first 4 actions of the game? I love that too.

[-MightyW-]

Yes so the last player can make himself start with either his first or his last move. That way, you have the player who has the worst position, have a final say on that in his last move.

[Atzedo]

I am of mightys opinion. And i made the same experiences.

The 4th player almost always plans to take sp.

=> 3rd seat becomes automatically ultra weak... (3rd decision in the first move, and last player in the next round) => 3rd seat is as weak as the 4th seat in the old opening.

=> 1st seat is super strong (1st choice in round 1 and 2nd player in the next round plus an extra food)

My prefered solution would be 1st player 2 food , 2nd player 3 food, 3 player 3 food, 4th player 4 food. (The Caverna opening)

Fahoeves solution is also worth a try. I think there is no solution that completeley assimilates the win rates on each seat.

[TigToad]

I've really liked it, I think it is more balanced than the traditional starting method. I saw a lot of 4th player taking SP at the beginning, but that seems to have calmed down quite a bit.

I definitely prefer to play this way now.

[EuroGamez]

I really dislike it, agree that it just forces 4th place to take SP and 1st place is just as happy. Before 4th place would at least know if thye had to take SP with their 2nd move to avoid being last R2 again. Now you you have to pre-comitt. And the stats said that it wasn't that bad with normal rules at least for 4 players.

It was 3 players where it was bad to go last cause the spaces are so bad , 1 clay instead of 2 clay, reed or stone instead of RSF. I would very much like to see a 3-player balance change option though, 1 extra food to 3rd player. So it's 2, 3, 4.

[Rudi1976]

Imo snake opening is directed to 4p games. Atm I agree that there is a tendency that the 4th player (way to often) picks Meeting Place with one of its actions and thatwise player 3 becomes the weakest position to start with, but I advise to give it more time and let meta this by itself.

[MasN]

I proposed reverse snake to start with, and I stand by this.

In agricola, there's an important invariant regarding the balance of SP. If it's your turn, and you don't take SP, and the person right after you does take SP, you go last next round.

Assuming that the second worker takes SP in round 1, reverse snake preserves this invariant, while forward snake does not.

[-MightyW-]

What are the guru's cooking up?

I truely still hate snake and it is a game theory disaster.

[Acerbic]

If you want to convince people, I think you're going to have to make a stronger case. Frankly, "game theory disaster" sounds rather hyperbolic and divorced from real game experiences.

IMO the main argument in favor of snake opening was reducing the downsides of being 4th, which were A) unfair, since you would simply not be able to make any meaningful choices, for several rounds in a row in some cases B) unfun, since you could be locked out of entire game plans by not getting occs out at critical times and C) significant, based on the win rate stats.

I feel like these issues have been completely solved and I no longer feel dread at being 4th. Knowing I can grab Fireplace clay, SP or even grab 2w or plow in rare cases more than makes up for getting a weaker first action.

Are all seats 100% balanced now? No, I doubt it. But I find Agricola far more fun this way and I'd bet the stats would show an overall improvement.