Algorithm cards and drafts

Suggestions & ideas / Suggestions & idées
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Patrick_CAJE
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Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Patrick_CAJE »

Playing several card games, I've noticed a huge difference between the physical game and the BGA version. Being unlucky by nature, I prefer more strategic games with as little randomness as possible.

The problem is that the algorithm too often favors a single player during drafts, and the card games that face off are often either two players with the same algorithm or several consecutive games with the same algorithm (yes, I've tested this).

So, by combining a ridiculous draft with an equally ridiculous card order, the extreme is that you're either completely favored or completely disadvantaged. This happens far too often on BGA when comparing to real life.

However, in a deck of 10 cards, each card has a 10% chance of being the first to be played. Why is it so often the same card ? And regarding the cumulative order of identical cards: the logic is that players space them out in their deck, to avoid getting doubles or triples in a row, before shuffling them later.

The same applies in a draft. It doesn't make sense to have 3-4 identical cards or cards from the same suit, and then have either the same suit or a completely different one. The ideal consistency would always be 1% in a 100-card deck with 10 suits. Normally, 10% of a card from each suit and 10% of a card from that suit. It's possible to have identical cards in pairs or from the same suit, just as it's possible to have single cards from different suits. It's not always just one player with duplicates/triplets. I have seen, in BGA, too often a player have the same card in triplicate or quadruplicate (available in 4 copies).

So, in drafting games, the algorithm must be based as the same set, but the order of algorithm must differs from one player to another. Some games, like Eternitium, offer cards to adjust the randomness and gain some control over it. Even then, I often see problematic algorithms (card is always sought in the last draw).

Examples, the order in Challengers! :
1. With 7 cards and 2 pairs, I often play my pairs first (Mime, Mime, then Illusionist, Illusionist) and then play my other singles.
2. In decks with more than 10 cards, with trios and pairs but only one Butler; the Butler is often played first or last, rarely between the 2nd and 9th positions.

Examples, the draft in Challengers! :
1. I get two Vendors in the first draft. After that, I either get no yellow cards or lots of yellow cards in subsequent drafts.
2. Often, I either have decent cards at the start or at the end. In both cases, the good cards to combine with the others either don't appear or all of them appear. This results in an extreme game of easy wins or losses without a fight, due to the draft's illogical algorithm.

You see it's ridiculous ? This happens often in BGA, but rarely with the physical game.
Last edited by Patrick_CAJE on 12 May 2026, 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Jellby
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Jellby »

Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 Being unlucky by nature
I think that says it all :D
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Tisaac
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Tisaac »

Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 You see it's ridiculous ? This happens often in BGA, but rarely with the physical game.
Any actual data to back your claim ?
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 Being unlucky by nature, I prefer more strategic games with as little randomness as possible.
There are strategic game with 0 randomness involved on BGA, you should try some ! (Santorini for instance)
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Kayvon
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Kayvon »

Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 However, in a deck of 10 cards, each card has a 1% chance of being the first to be played.
I think I see part of why the randomness isn't matching your expectations.
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Patrick_CAJE
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Patrick_CAJE »

Kayvon wrote: 12 May 2026, 02:47
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 However, in a deck of 10 cards, each card has a 1% chance of being the first to be played.
I think I see part of why the randomness isn't matching your expectations.
I meant 10%. That's the logic the algorithm should follow.
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Patrick_CAJE
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Patrick_CAJE »

Tisaac wrote: 11 May 2026, 23:07
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 You see it's ridiculous ? This happens often in BGA, but rarely with the physical game.
Any actual data to back your claim ?

It's obvious, too often for my taste. No need to include a link.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 Being unlucky by nature, I prefer more strategic games with as little randomness as possible.
There are strategic game with 0 randomness involved on BGA, you should try some ! (Santorini for instance)
Thank you, I'll take a look at that.
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BarnardsStar
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by BarnardsStar »

Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 Playing several card games, I've noticed a huge difference between the physical game and the BGA version. Being unlucky by nature, I prefer more strategic games with as little randomness as possible.
And yet on your playing history I see you play an awful lot of deck-based games, which tend to favor the luck of the draw. Curious.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 The problem is that the algorithm too often favors a single player during drafts, and the card games that face off are often either two players with the same algorithm or several consecutive games with the same algorithm (yes, I've tested this).
You say you’ve tested this and yet your post is bereft of any evidence or data. Curious.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 So, by combining a ridiculous draft with an equally ridiculous card order, the extreme is that you're either completely favored or completely disadvantaged. This happens far too often on BGA when comparing to real life.
It looks like your current favorite game (and one of your all-time favorites) is Challengers… I’m curious how many games of Challengers you have played in real life. Is it anywhere near the 338 times you’ve played here?
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 However, in a deck of 10 cards, each card has a 10% chance of being the first to be played. Why is it so often the same card ? And regarding the cumulative order of identical cards: the logic is that players space them out in their deck, to avoid getting doubles or triples in a row, before shuffling them later.
Again, you haven’t cited any evidence so I can’t possibly tell you “why it is so often the same card”. That presupposes that it is the same card. And I don’t even know what the last sentence is supposed to mean. Usually players don’t control the order of cards in their deck.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 The same applies in a draft. It doesn't make sense to have 3-4 identical cards or cards from the same suit, and then have either the same suit or a completely different one. The ideal consistency would always be 1% in a 100-card deck with 10 suits. Normally, 10% of a card from each suit and 10% of a card from that suit. It's possible to have identical cards in pairs or from the same suit, just as it's possible to have single cards from different suits. It's not always just one player with duplicates/triplets. I have seen, in BGA, too often a player have the same card in triplicate or quadruplicate (available in 4 copies).
You have completely lost me in this paragraph. (Especially the first sentence, which feels important but I cannot understand “it doesn’t make sense to … then have the either the same suit or a completely different one”—aren’t those the only options? To have the same suit or to have a different suit?) Is there a particular game you are referencing here that has ten suits with ten cards in each suit and also has identical cards etc? Because you can make stuff up but unless it has any bearing on reality, I don’t see how anybody can address your thought experiment.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 So, in drafting games, the algorithm must be based as the same set, but the order of algorithm must differs from one player to another. Some games, like Eternitium, offer cards to adjust the randomness and gain some control over it. Even then, I often see problematic algorithms (card is always sought in the last draw).
Again, don’t understand what you mean by “the order of algorithms” differing between players.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 Examples, the order in Challengers! :
1. With 7 cards and 2 pairs, I often play my pairs first (Mime, Mime, then Illusionist, Illusionist) and then play my other singles.
2. In decks with more than 10 cards, with trios and pairs but only one Butler; the Butler is often played first or last, rarely between the 2nd and 9th positions.
Do we care what order you play the cards? That’s your decision and nothing to do with randomness.
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 You see it's ridiculous ? This happens often in BGA, but rarely with the physical game.
The human mind evolved to be good at spotting patterns, like “All the birds just stopped singing, RUN!!” It doesn’t serve us well in instances of true randomness. We see pictures in the stars and faces in the clouds… and patterns in random board games that aren’t there. You can’t just wave your hands and declare it’s a problem. Make a prediction about your next 20 games, and then see whether you are right or not. If it’s an actual prediction about a “pattern” in randomness, my prediction is that you will be wrong.
Ceaseless
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Ceaseless »

Patrick_CAJE wrote: 12 May 2026, 04:22 It's obvious, too often for my taste. No need to include a link.
Also known as making stuff up. It's obvious, you're not the first person to attempt this, and it's not your first time doing it either. Last time, a quick look at the data dismantled your false statements. Trying to avoid the data this time around doesn't make for a particularly convincing case.
Ceaseless
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Ceaseless »

Tisaac wrote: 11 May 2026, 23:07
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 You see it's ridiculous ? This happens often in BGA, but rarely with the physical game.
Any actual data to back your claim ?
Patrick_CAJE wrote: 11 May 2026, 18:55 Being unlucky by nature, I prefer more strategic games with as little randomness as possible.
There are strategic game with 0 randomness involved on BGA, you should try some ! (Santorini for instance)
Their answer to the first part of the statement was stuck in the quoted portion where your post was. I only mention it because I missed it the first time I skimmed over the page since that's not where a reply is supposed to be, so I figured decent chance others might read over it and only see the part of their reply that was in the correct location and miss the part that wasn't.

But in other words, no, they don't have any actual data.
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Patrick_CAJE
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Re: Algorithm cards and drafts

Post by Patrick_CAJE »

"Do we care what order you play the cards? That’s your decision and nothing to do with randomness."

Yes, the order of the cards is supposed to be random. Yes, the card draw during the draft is also supposed to be random. Consider a standard deck of cards where you draw 6 cards... How many times will you draw more than one Ace from those 6 cards? And in two draws of 6 cards, how many times will you draw 4 Aces ?
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