Consecutive Wins

[h_illes]

So I eventually realized that by 'developer', you refer to game developers only, who are mostly volunteers indeed, while for me, the term 'developers' also includes BGA devs, who are paid staff. I think that was the root of the misunderstanding.

That is indeed very weird. -1 Arena points for a win !? As you said, that should not happen.

1) I do hope BGA fixes that.

They apparently fixed the cause of the bug.

2) I agree with you, there should be a direct link from the game page: "Contact BGA about an Elo or Arena points miscalculation."

My main grievance is that BGA devs still don't deal with fixing the miscalculated ELO/Arena points. There is a third group I call 'support' who do (who are also paid BGA staff). But I rather that BGA devs forward such bug reports to support directly than have the player do more reporting. Also note that this would mean no extra work for game devs.

3) The best way for this to be handled is to remove the developer from the equation entirely by having BGA implementing steps 1 and 2 above.

Once again, the difference in terminology. By developer, you mean the game dev, who did not get my bug report (and OP's bug report neither), because as a 'site bug', it was sent to BGA devs instead.

Your Elo was so much higher than the opponent's that the Calculated Elo gain may have been close to zero. And then, if the consecutive wins penalty (10% for the 3rd consecutive win) was applied, that may have resulted in a calculation that took the result from 0 to -1?

If that's how the -1 result occurred, that's bizarre. I've never seen anything to indicate that the consecutive wins penalty applies to Arena points. The consecutive wins penalty should not apply to Arena at all (not even the Elo) because Arena pairings are random in the first place.

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all. BGA never bothered to explain the cause of the bug, so I don't really know the root cause.

[FrankJones]

So I eventually realized that by 'developer', you refer to game developers only, who are mostly volunteers indeed, while for me, the term 'developers' also includes BGA devs, who are paid staff. I think that was the root of the misunderstanding.

Yeah, that's a very big misunderstanding. If you look back at my posts, I made it abundantly clear I was referring to the specific game developers for individual games. I was careful to make that distinction every time (or almost every time, maybe I missed it once or twice) I referred to the developers in the contexts in which I was referring to them.

My main grievance is that BGA devs still don't deal with fixing the miscalculated ELO/Arena points. There is a third group I call 'support' who do (who are also paid BGA staff). But I rather that BGA devs forward such bug reports to support directly than have the player do more reporting. Also note that this would mean no extra work for game devs.

Okay, so, from now on, we can refer to "BGA devs" and "game devs" to avoid confusion.
I have zero personal knowledge nor involvement in anything that BGA devs do or how they operate. As such, I have little or nothing to contribute to that aspect of this conversation, which I now realize might be almost entirely what your intended conversation was about. I was under the impression that every time you were demanding "developers" to do xyz, that you were referring to the specific developer for that game.

As long as the game developers are not saddled with extra work, I personally don't care whatsoever how these matters are handled. I don't have a big problem with the current situation, though I agree it could be improved. And if you are advocating for a faster and more streamlined method for players to have such matters resolved, I'm all for it, as long as the work is done by paid BGA staff and not game developers and unpaid volunteers.

Once again, the difference in terminology. By developer, you mean the game dev, who did not get my bug report (and OP's bug report neither), because as a 'site bug', it was sent to BGA devs instead.

Thankfully, we seem to have discovered the disconnect causing our mutual confusion and misunderstanding.

For anyone else reading this lengthy thread, keep I mind that specifying "BGA developers" and "game developers" in all contexts might be a good idea.

If that's how the -1 result occurred, that's bizarre. I've never seen anything to indicate that the consecutive wins penalty applies to Arena points.

I agree. I am baffled by the bug. As someone who knows how to write and read code, I would love to know how that happened. Sometimes bizarre and inexplicable bugs occur.

I had a game of Aquatica in which my opponent's turn was skipped entirely. There is just simply no explanation for this. The game developer was baffled. My opponent and I were baffled. Nothing in the game code could explain it. Nothing in the game log could explain it. But it ruined the game. (It would be like having two consecutive turns in chess.) Nobody ever figured it out. Some bugs just cannot be explained or solved. It was a "one-off", so to speak. I've never seen it happen in any game , ever, on any website, until that one time, and never again since then.

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all. BGA never bothered to explain the cause of the bug, so I don't really know the root cause.

Agreed, and I would be very curious to know how it happened.

The best explanation I can give is that somehow the consecutive wins penalty was wrongly applied, AND there was no BGA site code written into the penalty code to present the result from going below zero. Even then, I am having a difficult time explaining the bug, because, without a penalty, the Elo formula (whether used for Arena points or regular Elo) would never result in a negative number. It might be a veyr small number, approaching zero, but never negative. And then, even if a consecutive-wins penalty were applied, it's still adding 90% of a positive number, which can also never be a negative number.

So, that's a mystery. A bug somewhere deep within the BGA code. It shouldn't happen, and the game developer probably should not have been part of the process at all, in an ideal system.

[h_illes]

They said the negative Arena issue was fixed, so someone at BGA definitely knows the root cause of that bug. They just didn't explain.

[FrankJones]

That's understandable. Most people likely would not understand the explanation anyway.

What is most puzzling is why this bug occurred only in that one game. I've never heard of this bug happening in any other game. An intriguing mystery indeed.

[Shivaware]

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all.

Is this a new change, or has that always been the case?

[ChiefPointThief]

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all.

Is this a new change, or has that always been the case?

I’m sure he means it doesn’t apply to aes. The win penalty for elo still applies to games in arena.

[Shivaware]

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all.

Is this a new change, or has that always been the case?

I just noticed that https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=107164 was reported on 2023-12-12 at 7:22 p.m. and the thread announcing the so-called "ELO" changes was posted on 2023-12-13, 01:41 a.m.

I wonder if the glitch was somehow related to the update.

[FrankJones]

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all.

Is this a new change, or has that always been the case?

I’m sure he means it doesn’t apply to aes. The win penalty for elo still applies to games in arena.

What the !??????

You're right. I seem to have been assessed a penalty.

This is preposterous. I highly doubt the player at the top of the leaderboard is dumping wins to me. And besides, it's ARENA. We don't choose our opponents.

And it looks as though there was a penalty applied after only the SECOND consecutive win.

This is nonsense !

[FrankJones]

The consecutive wins penalty does not apply to Arena at all.

Is this a new change, or has that always been the case?

I just noticed that https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=107164 was reported on 2023-12-12 at 7:22 p.m. and the thread announcing the so-called "ELO" changes was posted on 2023-12-13, 01:41 a.m.

I wonder if the glitch was somehow related to the update.

That thread is nonsense. There is no Elo Decay, and they never did anything about the red-thumb abuse.

Also, the reason given for the Elo penalty after 3 consecutive wins is. "to encourage players to challenge different opponents."
We do not choose our Arena opponents! There is no need for the 3-wins penalty in Arena games.

[nik592]

Also, the reason given for the Elo penalty after 3 consecutive wins is. "to encourage players to challenge different opponents."
We do not choose our Arena opponents! There is no need for the 3-wins penalty in Arena games.

That was argued at length, and by many players in the 100-page thread. It's my biggest issue with the penalty system. BGA never addressed it.