Convoy From Europa

[mloballer]

So Convoy From Europa as an example. When I play this card, why do I need to place my ocean tile first? I don't see any way to draw the card first. Seeing what card I will get could affect my placement, it would be nice to have the option to draw the card before being forced to put the ocean down. In another app i've played on, it actually just draws the card first, so it would be nice to have the option to do so.

[Ingoschi]

It's already reported but seems not to be fixable
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=105763

[xspuipuke]

Drawing cards cannot be undone that's why drawing must be the last thing you do on your turn. For Convoy of Europa this might not matter but for other cards it does as they could fail and would break the game. And since the devs cannot be expected to run exceptions for specific cards, the code does not care which particular card you play: all behavior is the same and forces you to draw last.

[StrandedKnight]

Drawing cards cannot be undone that's why drawing must be the last thing you do on your turn. For Convoy of Europa this might not matter but for other cards it does as they could fail and would break the game. And since the devs cannot be expected to run exceptions for specific cards, the code does not care which particular card you play: all behavior is the same and forces you to draw last.

That's an error in the programming then. Drawing the cards first is clearly allowed in the rules and could matter for your ocean placement as pointed out. Perhaps it will require some refactoring, but it's definitely fixable.

[xspuipuke]

Of course, it's allowed by the rules but there are other card draw interactions that could end up in a deadlock, which is why here you need to draw last to avoid any potential deadlocks. (Again, this does not apply to Convoy but Convoy must still follow the general behavior.)

You can try talk to the dev about it. I did—to no avail. I would've done it differently for sure.

[Andrei3009]

Of course, it's allowed by the rules but there are other card draw interactions that could end up in a deadlock, which is why here you need to draw last to avoid any potential deadlocks. (Again, this does not apply to Convoy but Convoy must still follow the general behavior.)

You can try talk to the dev about it. I did—to no avail. I would've done it differently for sure.

In what cases is deadlock possible? I've played with all expansions and have never encountered such a situation, even in theory.

[xspuipuke]

Place a tile on the Hellas southpole with too little cash on hand, placing the ocean on the card (and draw it) rather than some place else so you get enough money back to pay the 6 MC cost, and you've got yourself a deadlock.

[Corvus Mortis]

Place a tile on the Hellas southpole with too little cash on hand, placing the ocean on the card (and draw it) rather than some place else so you get enough money back to pay the 6 MC cost, and you've got yourself a deadlock.

Placing the ocean somewhere where you gain insufficient rebates to pay for the ocean should not be allowed, in this case. I don’t see how this is relevant for Convoy though, which you have to pay for upfront. What is the deadlock scenario?

[Yahyra]

Here is where I don't know the exact rules; so those spots where you have to 'pay MC to X (bump a temp, place an ocean)', are they mandatory that you must pay and place the tile?

If so then that's the example that I think xspui is bringing up but now that I think about it, it doesn't 'make sense' since the spots where you have to pt a tile and pay MC to do something, are all land spots and not oceans?

Oh well.

Thanks to Victoria La (and are there other T Mars devs?) for the great work you do in developing this game here on BGA. In light of the fact that your work is unpaid / volunteer, I think it's outstandingly well done.

[xspuipuke]

Corvus, I suggest you contact the dev and ask her yourself.

The code as it is right now does not care whether you play Convoy or whatever. If your stack of effects contains card draw, the code forces you to draw last to avoid a deadlock scenario. The stack execution does not know how you got the card draw effect. It still has to make sure that no matter what order you choose, the stack execution does not fail. There have been fails in the past with various cards which made the dev come to the conclusion that drawing must be done last to avoid any problems.

The Southpole example was a direct response to the poster above me who asked for a potential deadlock scenario. And again, the stack execution cannot know beforehand whether the user will be able to pay 6 MC or not.