Discussion on AI Central (rebalance, when to play, the works)

[Lytical]

Since we have a topic on Earth Cat, it's only fitting we start one for AI.

1) How OP is it? Why AI is so influential?

2) How would you like to balance it.

3) What would you take over it in draft and in what conditions.

4) When would you play it when you have it in hand? If you have a perfect combo ready to be released but run into AI, would you delay your combo to drop AI?

[Andrei3009]

1) It's very very good cards that famous for flipping equal gamestates into unbearable really fast

2) I don't think it need to be rebalanced. Fixes will make it more likely to be bad but broken games will stay

3)You can take some other OP cards (restricted, Ec,playable NRa ) over it or can skip it if game will end it 2-3 gens or both players probably cant use it efficiently

4) It depends. delaying just ai loses you 2 cards so can be skipped espesially in early game. If you need to play not that important card to enable it combo mights be still better but you need to consider that combo can delay it more than one gen. In this case you might need to abandon combo\Ai entirely

Also title can be a bit misleading with alot of resent Artificial Intelligents forums. You might call it Discussion on AI Central (rebalance, when to play the works)

[Lytical]

3) Would you really take restricted over AI? I understand the stats rank restricted over AI for the general population but the math rank AI couple tiers above restricted. AI is income and a steel dump plus 2 tags while restricted is a tile and tag but not an income(2 for a card but if sell break even while AI is two cards free or 2MC).

[primrose1234]

3) Would you really take restricted over AI? I understand the stats rank restricted over AI for the general population but the math rank AI couple tiers above restricted. AI is income and a steel dump plus 2 tags while restricted is a tile and tag but not an income(2 for a card but if sell break even while AI is two cards free or 2MC).

Why do you need the building tag?
Why dont you mention the energy cost from AI?
Why dont you mention the free teleport which is pretty rare?
Why dont you mention the precondition from AI?

[landus]

1) Besides 2x card draw value it can also help you to get out of equal states with your opponent and not worry about heat as much when you’re playing tempo. It’s great but so are about 20 other cards. I don’t really get the EC/AIC obsession.
2) I wouldn’t. The deck consisting of better/worse cards isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It gives a chance for worse setups to bounce back using card draw. There are a few cards that could maybe use a rebalance — AIC isn’t one of them.
3) I try my best not to give it away early in the game but it really depends on a lot of factors. Early on I can imagine taking OptimalAero/NRA/GIA (maybe Deimos/Insects/EcoZone) over it. Later on it can be basically any influential card.
4) I would have to see a specific scenario. What is that „perfect combo”? But generally — yes. A lot of times I don’t even play it — just burn it. In a way this answers your question.

[landus]

I understand the stats rank restricted over AI (…)

AI ranks a bit higher in games of 650+elo. The stats I mentioned earlier: „92% wr across 165 games (RA) vs 87% wr across 110 games (AI) or 85% wr across 176 games (MarsU)” are only mine and I used them to back up my statement. They aren’t a good representation of most/best players’ preference.

[emgizy]

Is AI Central good? Yes, undoubtedly so, it allows you to "freely" draw 2 cards per gen, which is 50% more than any other player can get from the draft. And they have to pay for them!
Is it broken or does it need rebalancing? Depends on your definition of broken, but imo there are stronger cards. AI Central has very steep requirements: 3 science tags, energy prod, high cost, and doesn't really pay off immediately as you then need to pay for the cards you draw, and you could brick on them.
It is not a 100% instapick in any game state, there are much more impactful cards for rush setups, for example (GIA, Deimos, Kelp Farming, NRA, Insects...), but it is always a consideration in the draft, either to pick or to cut, as with most strong cards. That being said, you can draw all the good cards with AI, but if you don't have the economic development to play them, you will lose against any strong player, so it only bolsters an already decent setup, it can't just carry any setup to victory.
As for when to delay it, in general you should prioritize economic development first before drawing all the cards, so that you can afford them, or just skip it entirely if you're gunning for a shorter game against a better engine.

[Lytical]

The thing about AI is that itself is a winning condition. I just don't buy cards, I ended up with more money than a good engine after gen9, unless it's an early MS push, sometimes there is just no better thing to do than drop AI especially for 2p. I am ok to lose a game because of crazy jovs, but I am not going to lose a game from passing AI down. Now days especially against sub 700, I just want to stop my loss conditions rather than seeking winning conditions. You know what I am trying to say? At that Elo level I just don't want to give dumb wins. NRA is not going to generate a 30 point swing mid game from a losing position, but AI could, with AI they can't fund and everything is possible for me.

How many times that you have the game in the driver's seat and bam they drop AI, now everything changes, your engine became a liability, your award fund doesn't look so secure anymore, couple moves later you realizing you are losing and praying for standard techs. NRA doesn't do that, you just hold heat and block off oceans.

Oh I want to saying something real quick about Kelp. People especially from the steam community way over value this card. This card could be a trap since it's regarded as the best plant prod card in the game. But if you think about it, it's alright, no need to put that much priority into the draft. If it's being played early, you can asteroid it, if it played late then it's not efficient. And it's not that cheap with just one VP, it would be perfect if it's cheaper with no VP, it would be a much much better card. I feel like the meta data shows that it dies a lot in players' hand than being played. It's just awkward, which is counterintuitive considering its ranking. The same thing with insects and NRA, they are fantastic don't get me wrong, but there are counters for them, things like oxygen pumpers, blocking off ocean or holding heat. And sometimes insect and NRA just doesn't pay off, but AI rarely disappoints and way harder to counter against a good player. What do you guys think? I know it's a bit off topic.

Kelp 17(20) 2MC, 3Plant prod + 1VP and 2 Plants

[ft029]

There's already a giant thread debating the merits of AI central: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42951

The above post has got to be ragebait, but I will provide one piece of commentary: hurling asteroids at the opponent is not necessarily a counter to plant prod because often the rush player is making plants, and asteroids only serve to hasten the game.

[Lytical]

There's already a giant thread debating the merits of AI central: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42951

The above post has got to be ragebait, but I will provide one piece of commentary: hurling asteroids at the opponent is not necessarily a counter to plant prod because often the rush player is making plants, and asteroids only serve to hasten the game.

Not a ragebait, I meant what I said, it's true that asteroid pushes tempo, but unless it's ecoline, I will hit him to slow the pay off, and you can tier your asteroids and watch the ocean counts while doing it. In the end it's not about points the game is just a math equation, future value and ROI like a hedge fund, you are a fund manager. You hedge it by holding heat conversions, b/c you already got your ROI from the heat pump from the asteroid.