Players out of time - code of conduct

[Shivaware]

Since this is an interesting concept, I decided to make my version of how I think a respectful dialogue would go:

Me: Hey, you haven't been making a move for days. You should probably be careful of the other players, you know some people kick out...

Player: Oh, thanks for the head up. I've just been lazy lately and this is a decisive point in the game, so I haven't able to decide myself on a move yet.

Me: Oh, I see. You're right it's a pretty tight game. Your board looks promising though.

Player: Yeah, I think it'll look really beautiful by the end. I would hate it if the other players ended the game early.

Me: Well, you don't have to worry about anything with me, feel free to take as much time as you need.

Player: Thanks!

This is it, no overlong dialogue, no "peace" and "grace" and other fake benevolence stuff, no setting conditions, no looming threat, no treating the other person like they are a child or below you. Just straight to the point, understanding of the other person's feelings, and some friendly banter.

Okay, I think it's time for you to point out where the hidden camera is, so that we can all share a good laugh.

[Cile]

To me that dialogue sounds backhanded and condescending

Well, if anyone would know backhanded and condescending...

[nik592]

Since this is an interesting concept, I decided to make my version of how I think a respectful dialogue would go:

Me: Hey, you haven't been making a move for days. You should probably be careful of the other players, you know some people kick out...

Player: Oh, thanks for the head up. I've just been lazy lately and this is a decisive point in the game, so I haven't able to decide myself on a move yet.

Me: Oh, I see. You're right it's a pretty tight game. Your board looks promising though.

Player: Yeah, I think it'll look really beautiful by the end. I would hate it if the other players ended the game early.

Me: Well, you don't have to worry about anything with me, feel free to take as much time as you need.

Player: Thanks!

This is it, no overlong dialogue, no "peace" and "grace" and other fake benevolence stuff, no setting conditions, no looming threat, no treating the other person like they are a child or below you. Just straight to the point, understanding of the other person's feelings, and some friendly banter.

You are the only person I've ever heard talking about the "beauty" of a game. I'd describe games as interesting sometimes, tense or exciting maybe? Beautiful very occasionally, if we're talking about the components or the aesthetics of the board (eg. the end of a game like Takenoko), but that is not a word I've heard used about the game state (ie. what is created by the moves of the game) by anyone except you. As such, I think the scenario you've described above is pretty unusual and pretty unlikely. Happy to be corrected on that point though.

Furthermore, you're outlining a specific scenario - that is, a person hasn't taken their turn because they are undecided about what to do. In my experience, most people don't need close to 5 days to make a decision (which is about how long they would have to be taking to make their move before I would consider booting them, even at my preferred 4 turns/day speed). At that point, you're choosing to not make taking your move a priority. And yes, other things may be going on in their lives that do take higher priority, but that's not what your hypothetical situation suggests. Admittedly, I don't know what's going on with the players who vanish from my tables for 5 days at a time, but I'd assume that in many cases, it's simply that they forgot about the game, or weren't that interested.

Also, this? "You should probably be careful of the other players, you know some people kick out..." sounds like you mean you. That comes across way more like a threat than anything Meeplelowda said. And after a conversation such as yours (which wouldn't happen because even if someone told me my board looked "promising", I'd assume they meant I might be able to get a victory, not create a piece of art, because that's not what I'm doing), I'd be asking myself WHY this person brought up people kicking others out if "Well, you don't have to worry about anything with me, feel free to take as much time as you need."

[tbhp]

This is it, no overlong dialogue, no "peace" and "grace" and other fake benevolence stuff, no setting conditions, no looming threat, no treating the other person like they are a child or below you. Just straight to the point, understanding of the other person's feelings, and some friendly banter.

You have zero self-awareness, or you are trolling. There was nothing fake in my dialogue. I meant everything I said. That is a gloss entirely invented by you. And you have a lot of nerve talking about treating someone like they are beneath you given the arrogance you exhibit in virtually every single thing you write. I'm done with you. You behave exactly like someone who took one philosophy class in university and now thinks he is a master of rhetoric.

My arrogance doesn't come with any threat, that's the major difference. I have no power other than maybe change some people's minds. People who kick out come equipped with the power of being willing to terminate games, which they use to push people to behave in the ways they want, exactly like the character does in your dialogue. The display of kindness and benevolence feels off and not genuine because it is at odds with the harsh reality of what is going on.

[Meeplelowda]

Not even going to bother quoting you, because it would reveal more worthless content:
https://imgur.com/a/OADcC8I

[tbhp]

You are the only person I've ever heard talking about the "beauty" of a game. I'd describe games as interesting sometimes, tense or exciting maybe? Beautiful very occasionally, if we're talking about the components or the aesthetics of the board (eg. the end of a game like Takenoko), but that is not a word I've heard used about the game state (ie. what is created by the moves of the game) by anyone except you. As such, I think the scenario you've described above is pretty unusual and pretty unlikely. Happy to be corrected on that point though.

I think many games have a beauty in their final state but maybe not always one you'd describe as "looking beautiful". Like, an elegant final situation in Chess could be described as "beautiful", but you probably wouldn't word it as "looking beautiful", because it is more in an abstract sense (although the board and the pieces themselves are aesthetically beautiful).

I mostly play Harmonies on here and that's the game I generally have in mind when I make references to games that can be considered beautiful in all possible senses (although obviously it's subjective and people may disagree on which games are beautiful in which senses).

Furthermore, you're outlining a specific scenario - that is, a person hasn't taken their turn because they are undecided about what to do. In my experience, most people don't need close to 5 days to make a decision (which is about how long they would have to be taking to make their move before I would consider booting them, even at my preferred 4 turns/day speed). At that point, you're choosing to not make taking your move a priority. And yes, other things may be going on in their lives that do take higher priority, but that's not what your hypothetical situation suggests. Admittedly, I don't know what's going on with the players who vanish from my tables for 5 days at a time, but I'd assume that in many cases, it's simply that they forgot about the game, or weren't that interested.

Also, this? "You should probably be careful of the other players, you know some people kick out..." sounds like you mean you. That comes across way more like a threat than anything Meeplelowda said. And after a conversation such as yours (which wouldn't happen because even if someone told me my board looked "promising", I'd assume they meant I might be able to get a victory, not create a piece of art, because that's not what I'm doing), I'd be asking myself WHY this person brought up people kicking others out if "Well, you don't have to worry about anything with me, feel free to take as much time as you need."

You're right that it can seem forced. That's because in my philosophy, the character would just accept whatever the other person is saying and be good with it. So yeah, realistically there may not even be a need to approach. But I had to come up with something to show how my thinking differs and what I mean when I say I think other people are being harsh with their ideology.

[nik592]

I think many games have a beauty in their final state but maybe not always one you'd describe as "looking beautiful". Like, an elegant final situation in Chess could be described as "beautiful", but you probably wouldn't word it as "looking beautiful", because it is more in an abstract sense (although the board and the pieces themselves are aesthetically beautiful).

I mostly play Harmonies on here and that's the game I generally have in mind when I make references to games that can be considered beautiful in all possible senses (although obviously it's subjective and people may disagree on which games are beautiful in which senses).

That wasn't my point. My point was you seem to hold an unusual position in looking at a finished game as "beautiful". I'm well aware you do this - not for the first time are you bringing this up. But I suspect you are in a much greater minority there than the one you suggested was present about people who don't like to play two tables of the same game. As such, you're unlikely to ever have a conversation like the one you're suggesting. They're not going to tell you that the game is shaping up to be beautiful and they'd hate to see it it ruined. You bring up kicking someone off a table, they're going to assume you're considering doing that, and probably apologise. Or say nothing because they probably figure you'll do it whatever they say (or because they're not checking the table anymore).

[tbhp]

I think many games have a beauty in their final state but maybe not always one you'd describe as "looking beautiful". Like, an elegant final situation in Chess could be described as "beautiful", but you probably wouldn't word it as "looking beautiful", because it is more in an abstract sense (although the board and the pieces themselves are aesthetically beautiful).

I mostly play Harmonies on here and that's the game I generally have in mind when I make references to games that can be considered beautiful in all possible senses (although obviously it's subjective and people may disagree on which games are beautiful in which senses).

That wasn't my point. My point was you seem to hold an unusual position in looking at a finished game as "beautiful". I'm well aware you do this - not for the first time are you bringing this up. But I suspect you are in a much greater minority there than the one you suggested was present about people who don't like to play two tables of the same game. As such, you're unlikely to ever have a conversation like the one you're suggesting. They're not going to tell you that the game is shaping up to be beautiful and they'd hate to see it it ruined. You bring up kicking someone off a table, they're going to assume you're considering doing that, and probably apologise. Or say nothing because they probably figure you'll do it whatever they say (or because they're not checking the table anymore).

But it doesn't really matter what they say, the important part is that they say they'd hate being kicked out. I know not everyone may think of it in terms of beautiful, but anyone who hates early game termination probably sees a loss of some kind. That's all I need to know to know that it'd be wrong to do it.

[nik592]

But it doesn't really matter what they say, the important part is that they say they'd hate being kicked out. I know not everyone may think of it in terms of beautiful, but anyone who hates early game termination probably sees a loss of some kind. That's all I need to know to know that it'd be wrong to do it.

They're not going to tell you they're fine with you kicking them out - no one WANTS to be kicked out (or if they do, I might question why they bother playing games). They MIGHT not care one way or the other, but in that case they're probably not going to tell you anything cause they don't care.

I thought kicking out a player was more about the delicate feelings of your fellow players? And you're even less likely to get a response from them because it's not their turn and you don't see chat messages unless you enter a table (if then), which they're unlikely to do because it's not their turn.

That's the other reason people normally get a few days grace from me - because 90% of the time, I just play through my waiting tables. Very occasionally I might look at what happened to that table of whatever game I thought I was playing, by which point, they're already a few days over time and probably not planning to return.

[tbhp]

But it doesn't really matter what they say, the important part is that they say they'd hate being kicked out. I know not everyone may think of it in terms of beautiful, but anyone who hates early game termination probably sees a loss of some kind. That's all I need to know to know that it'd be wrong to do it.

They're not going to tell you they're fine with you kicking them out - no one WANTS to be kicked out (or if they do, I might question why they bother playing games). They MIGHT not care one way or the other, but in that case they're probably not going to tell you anything cause they don't care.

I thought kicking out a player was more about the delicate feelings of your fellow players? And you're even less likely to get a response from them because it's not their turn and you don't see chat messages unless you enter a table (if then), which they're unlikely to do because it's not their turn.

That's the other reason people normally get a few days grace from me - because 90% of the time, I just play through my waiting tables. Very occasionally I might look at what happened to that table of whatever game I thought I was playing, by which point, they're already a few days over time and probably not planning to return.

Earlier I was talking about how kicking out is indefensible when it's hurting others in a multiplayer game, while for two players it's more of a grey area. But for myself, I wouldn't kick out in a two players game either, so that reflects in the dialogue.

I had not been thinking about how they might be lying. That's an interesting point, but it doesn't change anything, you can't change the way you treat someone just because you can't be sure if they are telling the truth. You have to take them at their word.

And if they just say they hate it, I'm not gonna stand here and wonder "do they mean they hate it in the typical way anyone would hate being kicked out, or do they mean it in the more devastating way I feel when a game is terminated?" I just assume worst case scenario and don't kick out.