tutorial collects chips is strange

[idia_blue]

A new tutorial has been released, but since the method for collecting chips described in it differs from what we all generally agree on, I’d like to raise this issue here.

[tarongot]

A new tutorial has been released, but since the method for collecting chips described in it differs from what we all generally agree on, I’d like to raise this issue here.

New? Is there more then 1? I tried one, when was in Beta, and I though same, that signaling system is way different, more based on guessing then showing high card, as people played in alpha and in beta.

Edit: I checked there is only 1. Maybe that what is causing problems from this topic: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49369

[Thomas]

The tutorial is new, because it has been released just 4 days ago (before that, the tutorial was beta for some time, but that does not count as released). It doesn’t mean that there was an older tutorial for the same game.

To the original topic:

BGAs tutorial guidelines say: „Tutorials should focus on rules, not on strategy tips. Quick tips are okay, but a tutorial Is not a strategy guide.“

I think, a tutorial should not recommend a specific strategy, and in particular should not give the impression that this strategy is the only option allowed by the game rules. It’s okay to explain your reasoning when describing a specific move (“we have two high single cards; let’s take the 6-chip”), but this shouldn’t be treated as a strict rule.

Some players evaluate their hand solely based on the cards already visible in the center of the table, while others factor in their hand’s potential (i.e., how likely it is to get a great combination as more cards are revealed). The game does not dictate how to evaluate your own hand. And therefore, a tutorial should not present a specific playing strategy as the only correct one. Strategy tips can be added to the tips section for The Gang, instead.

[idia_blue]

I see. So there’s only one tutorial, and you’re not supposed to include strategy in it. I didn’t know that. Sorry for posting without knowing.

Take Hanabi, for example—is the only way to learn strategies for cooperative board games by making mistakes? I found it really hard for new players to pick up the tactics for cooperative board games. With competitive board games, you’re the only one who suffers, but with cooperative games, you end up causing trouble for everyone else.
I guess it wouldn’t be such a struggle if we could just play cooperative board games with just our own group of friends.

[Jellby]

Take Hanabi, for example—is the only way to learn strategies for cooperative board games by making mistakes?

No, you can read the strategy tips section (if someone writes it), for example.

[tarongot]

Can you really play Gang without signaling? Just like can you play Bridge without "language" used by team in auction phase?
I think not. So signaling is part of rules and should be included in tutorial. Also without that tutorial is pointless. What you show in it? How to pick a chip and nothing more, because which chip to take is "part of strategy".
Therefor there should be a signaling that is most common used.

PS: For me signaling that uses "potential" hand is playing to lose, so something that should be reportable. Goal of game is to set players hand in order of what they have, not what they potentially could have.

[Bridgeman_174]

Goal of game is to set players hand in order of what they have, not what they potentially could have.

The goal of the game is to win enough rounds before losing too much rounds. And you do that by everyone having the right chip at the end of the round. How you get there is NOT part of the rules.

PS: For me signaling that uses "potential" hand is playing to lose, so something that should be reportable.

Do I understand you correctly? You want to report people for having a different style how they play the game?

[tarongot]

Goal of game is to set players hand in order of what they have, not what they potentially could have.

The goal of the game is to win enough rounds before losing too much rounds. And you do that by everyone having the right chip at the end of the round. How you get there is NOT part of the rules.

PS: For me signaling that uses "potential" hand is playing to lose, so something that should be reportable.

Do I understand you correctly? You want to report people for having a different style how they play the game?

I've answered that already. If someone's "style of play" is playing to lose then yes. I think that should be reported. There is even a reason for that in BGA report page.

If someone want guess right order, or roll a dice to tell him/her what chip to take. Do it. I'm pretty sure most of good players won't want to play with that "style" and that someone will end with lots of RTs. Same way you can try play bridge, by guessing and do random auction phase.

PS: Maybe its not part of rules if you use RAW thinking, but its part of common sense, and part of cooperating in cooperative game description.

[Bridgeman_174]

Goal of game is to set players hand in order of what they have, not what they potentially could have.

The goal of the game is to win enough rounds before losing too much rounds. And you do that by everyone having the right chip at the end of the round. How you get there is NOT part of the rules.

PS: For me signaling that uses "potential" hand is playing to lose, so something that should be reportable.

Do I understand you correctly? You want to report people for having a different style how they play the game?

I've answered that already. If someone's "style of play" is playing to lose then yes. I think that should be reported. There is even a reason for that in BGA report page.

If someone want guess right order, or roll a dice to tell him/her what chip to take. Do it. I'm pretty sure most of good players won't want to play with that "style" and that someone will end with lots of RTs. Same way you can try play bridge, by guessing and do random auction phase.

PS: Maybe its not part of rules if you use RAW thinking, but its part of common sense, and part of cooperating in cooperative game description.

I asked because I couldn't believe what I read. I'm just speechless.

So by that logic, if you make a mistake that causes the team to lose, everyone else should be allowed to report you too?

BGA is not a platform only for the high skilled elite pro players who want to play a perfect game every time. It's a platform for everyone. And the games too. So everyone has the right to play how she/he/... wants to. (Of course except for crashing games ON PURPOSE). You don't have to play with these people. Currently on BGA it is hard to find a group of players if one has desires or expectations on skill level or play style. Therefore BGA needs a better filtering system or smth similar.

[tarongot]

The goal of the game is to win enough rounds before losing too much rounds. And you do that by everyone having the right chip at the end of the round. How you get there is NOT part of the rules.



Do I understand you correctly? You want to report people for having a different style how they play the game?

I've answered that already. If someone's "style of play" is playing to lose then yes. I think that should be reported. There is even a reason for that in BGA report page.

If someone want guess right order, or roll a dice to tell him/her what chip to take. Do it. I'm pretty sure most of good players won't want to play with that "style" and that someone will end with lots of RTs. Same way you can try play bridge, by guessing and do random auction phase.

PS: Maybe its not part of rules if you use RAW thinking, but its part of common sense, and part of cooperating in cooperative game description.

I asked because I couldn't believe what I read. I'm just speechless.

So by that logic, if you make a mistake that causes the team to lose, everyone else should be allowed to report you too?

BGA is not a platform only for the high skilled elite pro players who want to play a perfect game every time. It's a platform for everyone. And the games too. So everyone has the right to play how she/he/... wants to. (Of course except for crashing games ON PURPOSE). You don't have to play with these people. Currently on BGA it is hard to find a group of players if one has desires or expectations on skill level or play style. Therefore BGA needs a better filtering system or smth similar.

It seems to me that you can't believe because you can't understand. Is mistake same as playing bad ON PURPOSE?

No, BGA doesn't need "better filtering system". Better, would suggest there is already one, there is not. Cooperative games (almost all) have no filtering (ranking) system at all. That is what I've said in many topics, and not only me. To what that leads, you can read in other topic. And only because Gang is very popular game. So in big group of people someone posted, and few commented. While in other, less popular coop games, you have same problems but no one to post that, and no one would care, even if someone had post. Including BGA staff.

Years ago preparation for that (ranking system) was made and years later - nothing. You only have a feature that only purpose now is to irritate players. You can't all agree to leave game when you see, from start, that you all don't agree on way to play. That is count as loosing game, and no one want to lose.