Banlist Discussion!

[alexwjb]

Obviously keep banned... If you want to play with crazy good card just play without the ban list. pinder_tron is #1 ranked player and still playes a lot of games without ban-list. So you can definielty play around all cards if you really want to (I rather not).

But the card is broken, you get a 3rd FM that costs less to feed then a regular FM, and you get a grow and a room build (for -1r -1w) and a free Adoptive Prents... all on a minor...

It's not fun to play against as you can get 2 actions in a row too...

If you love OP cards, just play without the banlist IMO =)

I don't think it's anything like as obviously broken/OP as you think.

Again: it was the 27th strongest minor improvement (not including banned minor improvements!) in the game while it was unbanned. That's very strong, but not even close to the strongest. That was on a decent size dataset (around 600 deals per minor).

You ignore:

- It's not a person, in that you don't get 3 points.
- It's not a room, in that it doesn't cover a farmyard space and can't be renovated later (but still costs most of a room).
- The huge food cost you need to gather before playing it (in order to get a the powerful benefit).
- The fact that you open the growth queue to other players by typicaly not contesting first/early build.

My sense is that people are overvaluing the extra actions and undervaluing the downsides of it. In that it kind of reminds me of Beer Table: various people have suggested that should be banned, but the data do not support a ban at all. The downsides are "subtler" that the obvious benefits.

Anyway: mine is just one opinion - currently the vote is too close to make a change, I think. Let's see if more views come in.

Keep banned [12]: torvaldur, justyellow, Lasertrip, xaxaQ, alsozatch, haydeezz, cs2376jr, grnt, cranesflyhigh, kokiloki, EuroGamez, Gaskell146
Unban [13]: alexwjb, silverriver, lezurichois (not strongly), Swathe, Aspheric, -MightyW-, Pepikos, ducr, lumin_s, smoothjelly, jcraig314, Schaden90, Rustycrab
Neutral [4]: Siveure, Ranior, Acerbic, colorfulpockets

[grnt]

Obviously keep banned... If you want to play with crazy good card just play without the ban list. pinder_tron is #1 ranked player and still playes a lot of games without ban-list. So you can definielty play around all cards if you really want to (I rather not).

But the card is broken, you get a 3rd FM that costs less to feed then a regular FM, and you get a grow and a room build (for -1r -1w) and a free Adoptive Prents... all on a minor...

It's not fun to play against as you can get 2 actions in a row too...

If you love OP cards, just play without the banlist IMO =)

I don't think it's anything like as obviously broken/OP as you think.

Again: it was the 27th strongest minor improvement (not including banned minor improvements!) in the game while it was unbanned. That's very strong, but not even close to the strongest. That was on a decent size dataset (around 600 deals per minor).

You ignore:

- It's not a person, in that you don't get 3 points.
- It's not a room, in that it doesn't cover a farmyard space and can't be renovated later (but still costs most of a room).
- The huge food cost you need to gather before playing it (in order to get a the powerful benefit).
- The fact that you open the growth queue to other players by typicaly not contesting first/early build.

My sense is that people are overvaluing the extra actions and undervaluing the downsides of it. In that it kind of reminds me of Beer Table: various people have suggested that should be banned, but the data do not support a ban at all. The downsides are "subtler" that the obvious benefits.

Anyway: mine is just one opinion - currently the vote is too close to make a change, I think. Let's see if more views come in.

Keep banned [12]: torvaldur, justyellow, Lasertrip, xaxaQ, alsozatch, haydeezz, cs2376jr, grnt, cranesflyhigh, kokiloki, EuroGamez, Gaskell146
Unban [13]: alexwjb, silverriver, lezurichois (not strongly), Swathe, Aspheric, -MightyW-, Pepikos, ducr, lumin_s, smoothjelly, jcraig314, Schaden90, Rustycrab
Neutral [4]: Siveure, Ranior, Acerbic, colorfulpockets

I just want to point out that the food cost is nowhere near as debilitating as you think, you dont pay for the person in harvests so its half the food cost of lover, and you decide how much you want to dump into it (so playing it round 4 and dumping 6+ food into it is not only feasible, but often trivially easy)

[alexwjb]

Obviously keep banned... If you want to play with crazy good card just play without the ban list. pinder_tron is #1 ranked player and still playes a lot of games without ban-list. So you can definielty play around all cards if you really want to (I rather not).

But the card is broken, you get a 3rd FM that costs less to feed then a regular FM, and you get a grow and a room build (for -1r -1w) and a free Adoptive Prents... all on a minor...

It's not fun to play against as you can get 2 actions in a row too...

If you love OP cards, just play without the banlist IMO =)

I don't think it's anything like as obviously broken/OP as you think.

Again: it was the 27th strongest minor improvement (not including banned minor improvements!) in the game while it was unbanned. That's very strong, but not even close to the strongest. That was on a decent size dataset (around 600 deals per minor).

You ignore:

- It's not a person, in that you don't get 3 points.
- It's not a room, in that it doesn't cover a farmyard space and can't be renovated later (but still costs most of a room).
- The huge food cost you need to gather before playing it (in order to get a the powerful benefit).
- The fact that you open the growth queue to other players by typicaly not contesting first/early build.

My sense is that people are overvaluing the extra actions and undervaluing the downsides of it. In that it kind of reminds me of Beer Table: various people have suggested that should be banned, but the data do not support a ban at all. The downsides are "subtler" that the obvious benefits.

Anyway: mine is just one opinion - currently the vote is too close to make a change, I think. Let's see if more views come in.

Keep banned [12]: torvaldur, justyellow, Lasertrip, xaxaQ, alsozatch, haydeezz, cs2376jr, grnt, cranesflyhigh, kokiloki, EuroGamez, Gaskell146
Unban [13]: alexwjb, silverriver, lezurichois (not strongly), Swathe, Aspheric, -MightyW-, Pepikos, ducr, lumin_s, smoothjelly, jcraig314, Schaden90, Rustycrab
Neutral [4]: Siveure, Ranior, Acerbic, colorfulpockets

I just want to point out that the food cost is nowhere near as debilitating as you think, you dont pay for the person in harvests so its half the food cost of lover, and you decide how much you want to dump into it (so playing it round 4 and dumping 6+ food into it is not only feasible, but often trivially easy)

Again: this does not explain why the card was only the 27th best unbanned card while live. Clearly it is not “often trivially easy” to play it in round 4 or, if it is, you are often allowing your opponents a lot of good actions which gives them decent compensation.

[EuroGamez]

Obviously keep banned... If you want to play with crazy good card just play without the ban list. pinder_tron is #1 ranked player and still playes a lot of games without ban-list. So you can definielty play around all cards if you really want to (I rather not).

But the card is broken, you get a 3rd FM that costs less to feed then a regular FM, and you get a grow and a room build (for -1r -1w) and a free Adoptive Prents... all on a minor...

It's not fun to play against as you can get 2 actions in a row too...

If you love OP cards, just play without the banlist IMO =)

I don't think it's anything like as obviously broken/OP as you think.

Again: it was the 27th strongest minor improvement (not including banned minor improvements!) in the game while it was unbanned. That's very strong, but not even close to the strongest. That was on a decent size dataset (around 600 deals per minor).

You ignore:

- It's not a person, in that you don't get 3 points.
- It's not a room, in that it doesn't cover a farmyard space and can't be renovated later (but still costs most of a room).
- The huge food cost you need to gather before playing it (in order to get a the powerful benefit).
- The fact that you open the growth queue to other players by typicaly not contesting first/early build.

My sense is that people are overvaluing the extra actions and undervaluing the downsides of it. In that it kind of reminds me of Beer Table: various people have suggested that should be banned, but the data do not support a ban at all. The downsides are "subtler" that the obvious benefits.

Anyway: mine is just one opinion - currently the vote is too close to make a change, I think. Let's see if more views come in.

Keep banned [12]: torvaldur, justyellow, Lasertrip, xaxaQ, alsozatch, haydeezz, cs2376jr, grnt, cranesflyhigh, kokiloki, EuroGamez, Gaskell146
Unban [13]: alexwjb, silverriver, lezurichois (not strongly), Swathe, Aspheric, -MightyW-, Pepikos, ducr, lumin_s, smoothjelly, jcraig314, Schaden90, Rustycrab
Neutral [4]: Siveure, Ranior, Acerbic, colorfulpockets

For how long had the card actually been implemented when those stats were published? Latest stats I can see are from 2025 I think that card was pretty new when those stats were published and maybe hadn't reached its full potential (but I could be wrong here, maybe you have the capability to look this up). I think it's an imidiate top10 card (of those unbanned) if unbanned. It doen't add interesting stats to the game IMO, just just a bnch of free actions. It requires no synnergies just food, even bottom feeding is enough to get it going. It doen't prevent you from actually growing in the last round to still sore 3 points.

If unbanned I'd definitely say only do it for 3-4 players and not for 2 player. Having that big of a swing in a zero-sum 2 player game is just overpowered. But I rather see it banned for all player counts.

[alexwjb]

For how long had the card actually been implemented when those stats were published? Latest stats I can see are from 2025 I think that card was pretty new when those stats were published and maybe hadn't reached its full potential (but I could be wrong here, maybe you have the capability to look this up). I think it's an imidiate top10 card (of those unbanned) if unbanned. It doen't add interesting stats to the game IMO, just just a bnch of free actions. It requires no synnergies just food, even bottom feeding is enough to get it going. It doen't prevent you from actually growing in the last round to still sore 3 points.

If unbanned I'd definitely say only do it for 3-4 players and not for 2 player. Having that big of a swing in a zero-sum 2 player game is just overpowered. But I rather see it banned for all player counts.

The card was implemented in September 2023 and banned in July 2024.

The stats I'm referring to are here: https://pastebin.com/VxFtkhWF

Lumin did stats in 2023 and 2025, someone anonymous took it on themselves to make these stats in 2024 (which is NOT encouraged because it involves scraping the site = against terms of service).

Anyway: it's possible that it wasn't out for long enough for players to realise how great it is/learn how to use it properly? But of course that's not consistent with those arguing that it's simple/trivial to play and get a huge benefit from.

I think the best explanation is that it just isn't overpowered, it is merely very strong, and it isn't actually stronger than Swing Plow / Brewery Pond / Cesspit / Harvest House etc.

But given the split of opinion is currently very even on either side, it won't be unbanned unless that changes.

(Incidentally: my guess it would be significantly worse in 2p, no? The reason it's very strong in 4p no-AAS games is that it gives you access to Family Grow which otherwise can be hard to get. But you can never be more than 1 away from the top of the growth queue in 2p anyway? Other growth cheats are consistently much worse in 2p than 4p games.)

[EuroGamez]

For how long had the card actually been implemented when those stats were published? Latest stats I can see are from 2025 I think that card was pretty new when those stats were published and maybe hadn't reached its full potential (but I could be wrong here, maybe you have the capability to look this up). I think it's an imidiate top10 card (of those unbanned) if unbanned. It doen't add interesting stats to the game IMO, just just a bnch of free actions. It requires no synnergies just food, even bottom feeding is enough to get it going. It doen't prevent you from actually growing in the last round to still sore 3 points.

If unbanned I'd definitely say only do it for 3-4 players and not for 2 player. Having that big of a swing in a zero-sum 2 player game is just overpowered. But I rather see it banned for all player counts.

The card was implemented in September 2023 and banned in July 2024.

The stats I'm referring to are here: https://pastebin.com/VxFtkhWF

Lumin did stats in 2023 and 2025, someone anonymous took it on themselves to make these stats in 2024 (which is NOT encouraged because it involves scraping the site = against terms of service).

Anyway: it's possible that it wasn't out for long enough for players to realise how great it is/learn how to use it properly? But of course that's not consistent with those arguing that it's simple/trivial to play and get a huge benefit from.

I think the best explanation is that it just isn't overpowered, it is merely very strong, and it isn't actually stronger than Swing Plow / Brewery Pond / Cesspit / Harvest House etc.

But given the split of opinion is currently very even on either side, it won't be unbanned unless that changes.

(Incidentally: my guess it would be significantly worse in 2p, no? The reason it's very strong in 4p no-AAS games is that it gives you access to Family Grow which otherwise can be hard to get. But you can never be more than 1 away from the top of the growth queue in 2p anyway? Other growth cheats are consistently much worse in 2p than 4p games.)

The reason it's strong in 2p is the zero-sum nature of the game. It gives you a bonus for playing a food denial strategy. I.e taking the first 3 fish space (which is often contested) as well as going for the first Firplace and taking all the sheep. Also Meeting Place SP is increadibly important in 2p games so this is another thign to play that you can then essentially get 3 actions in a row very suddenly and as early as Turn 4.

[alexwjb]

For how long had the card actually been implemented when those stats were published? Latest stats I can see are from 2025 I think that card was pretty new when those stats were published and maybe hadn't reached its full potential (but I could be wrong here, maybe you have the capability to look this up). I think it's an imidiate top10 card (of those unbanned) if unbanned. It doen't add interesting stats to the game IMO, just just a bnch of free actions. It requires no synnergies just food, even bottom feeding is enough to get it going. It doen't prevent you from actually growing in the last round to still sore 3 points.

If unbanned I'd definitely say only do it for 3-4 players and not for 2 player. Having that big of a swing in a zero-sum 2 player game is just overpowered. But I rather see it banned for all player counts.

The card was implemented in September 2023 and banned in July 2024.

The stats I'm referring to are here: https://pastebin.com/VxFtkhWF

Lumin did stats in 2023 and 2025, someone anonymous took it on themselves to make these stats in 2024 (which is NOT encouraged because it involves scraping the site = against terms of service).

Anyway: it's possible that it wasn't out for long enough for players to realise how great it is/learn how to use it properly? But of course that's not consistent with those arguing that it's simple/trivial to play and get a huge benefit from.

I think the best explanation is that it just isn't overpowered, it is merely very strong, and it isn't actually stronger than Swing Plow / Brewery Pond / Cesspit / Harvest House etc.

But given the split of opinion is currently very even on either side, it won't be unbanned unless that changes.

(Incidentally: my guess it would be significantly worse in 2p, no? The reason it's very strong in 4p no-AAS games is that it gives you access to Family Grow which otherwise can be hard to get. But you can never be more than 1 away from the top of the growth queue in 2p anyway? Other growth cheats are consistently much worse in 2p than 4p games.)

The reason it's strong in 2p is the zero-sum nature of the game. It gives you a bonus for playing a food denial strategy. I.e taking the first 3 fish space (which is often contested) as well as going for the first Firplace and taking all the sheep. Also Meeting Place SP is increadibly important in 2p games so this is another thign to play that you can then essentially get 3 actions in a row very suddenly and as early as Turn 4.

Ah, I see what you mean. I don't play 2p, food denial makes sense

[grnt]

I don't think it's anything like as obviously broken/OP as you think.

Again: it was the 27th strongest minor improvement (not including banned minor improvements!) in the game while it was unbanned. That's very strong, but not even close to the strongest. That was on a decent size dataset (around 600 deals per minor).

You ignore:

- It's not a person, in that you don't get 3 points.
- It's not a room, in that it doesn't cover a farmyard space and can't be renovated later (but still costs most of a room).
- The huge food cost you need to gather before playing it (in order to get a the powerful benefit).
- The fact that you open the growth queue to other players by typicaly not contesting first/early build.

My sense is that people are overvaluing the extra actions and undervaluing the downsides of it. In that it kind of reminds me of Beer Table: various people have suggested that should be banned, but the data do not support a ban at all. The downsides are "subtler" that the obvious benefits.

Anyway: mine is just one opinion - currently the vote is too close to make a change, I think. Let's see if more views come in.

Keep banned [12]: torvaldur, justyellow, Lasertrip, xaxaQ, alsozatch, haydeezz, cs2376jr, grnt, cranesflyhigh, kokiloki, EuroGamez, Gaskell146
Unban [13]: alexwjb, silverriver, lezurichois (not strongly), Swathe, Aspheric, -MightyW-, Pepikos, ducr, lumin_s, smoothjelly, jcraig314, Schaden90, Rustycrab
Neutral [4]: Siveure, Ranior, Acerbic, colorfulpockets

I just want to point out that the food cost is nowhere near as debilitating as you think, you dont pay for the person in harvests so its half the food cost of lover, and you decide how much you want to dump into it (so playing it round 4 and dumping 6+ food into it is not only feasible, but often trivially easy)

Again: this does not explain why the card was only the 27th best unbanned card while live. Clearly it is not “often trivially easy” to play it in round 4 or, if it is, you are often allowing your opponents a lot of good actions which gives them decent compensation.

Would you yourself have known to play that way prior to this topic? I would say it's easy and straightforward to play once you know, but if you don't you might instead play it more like a lover for full actions/4th person, basically using it "fairly", in those cases I think it's powerlevel is more than fine to be unbanned. If someone hasnt played with the card before or know for a fact how it works I would go as far as to say it's close to impossible to use to its full strength, as the risk reward proposition doing so is "gain an amount of tempo" vs "lose the game on the spot"

I think because of this knowledge requisite the card is expected to perform significantly under its actual powerlevel until it is considered common knowledge across the sampled player base

[alexwjb]

Would you yourself have known to play that way prior to this topic? I would say it's easy and straightforward to play once you know, but if you don't you might instead play it more like a lover for full actions/4th person, basically using it "fairly", in those cases I think it's powerlevel is more than fine to be unbanned. If someone hasnt played with the card before or know for a fact how it works I would go as far as to say it's close to impossible to use to its full strength, as the risk reward proposition doing so is "gain an amount of tempo" vs "lose the game on the spot"

I think because of this knowledge requisite the card is expected to perform significantly under its actual powerlevel until it is considered common knowledge across the sampled player base

I don't agree with this idea that there is a secret-sauce way to play Guest Room and that once you understand it, it becomes both very easy to play and overpowered. It strikes me as simply a convenient (in the sense of unfalsifiable) argument to explain away the fact that its statistics were strong, but not unduly strong.

It's not a complicated card to understand. Get a bunch of food and gather the resources, and you can start getting an extra action per round.

There are other cards that let you grow in Stage 1 - Bed Maker comes to mind. I'm not suggesting that Bed Maker is anywhere close to as strong as Guest Room. But it's interesting to me that Bed Maker is the single most overrated card in the game, in terms of the difference between its actual power and how early people draft it. I think that people see a card that can let you get more actions early and think it's stronger than it really is (see also: Little Stick Knitter). Bed Maker is a mediocre card with decent combo potential, but it's drafted as though it's a strong card. Guest Room, in my opinion, is a very strong card that is being treated as though it's completely broken. I think people continue to ignore the downsides of the card, in terms of it not giving you a real person worth points, not giving you a room worth points, its challenging food tempo, and the likelihood that you are allowing other players to grow earlier too.

[Rustycrab]

gather 4 wood 1,5 action gather reed 0,5 action gather 6 food 2 actions. play minor 0,5 action. That is 4,5 stage 1 actions for a return of 6 late actions in stage 2-4. that is not that great. (considering you are willing to waste your first draft pick on that opportunity) in Late growth it is good, in early growth you wasted almost your entire stage 1 and did not setup anything usefull