Ranking up fast in cooperative games

[tarongot]

You say Pandemic has a system applicable for all cooperative games, yet it is that very system which Ufm has to insert an edit that no fewer than 3 different games switched out of that method, unless that was an oddly phrased way of saying they were fixing their post rather than noting an update in methodology. Either way it seems this method was not a popular one among the cooperative games. And this was all before BGA realized the system was a disaster and made their update to address that.

You say Ufm was biased against these cooperative games, yet they were one of the developers putting in the work to handle them.

Forbidden Island, Tranquility, Yokai switched to option strongly advocated by ufm. All 3 of that games are maintained by ufm. Question ask on its own: was that change before or after ufm started maintaining them ? And handling them by refusing to give those games ranking system.

And what "method not being popular" says, except "not being popular? Any clues WHY method is not being popular? Any chance it has something to do with one very vocal developer advocating against that method?

Yet only what BGA did about that "disaster system" hiding ELO points for coop games. That "disaster system" still works in at least 1 game.

[Ceaseless]

You say Pandemic has a system applicable for all cooperative games, yet it is that very system which Ufm has to insert an edit that no fewer than 3 different games switched out of that method, unless that was an oddly phrased way of saying they were fixing their post rather than noting an update in methodology. Either way it seems this method was not a popular one among the cooperative games. And this was all before BGA realized the system was a disaster and made their update to address that.

You say Ufm was biased against these cooperative games, yet they were one of the developers putting in the work to handle them.

Forbidden Island, Tranquility, Yokai switched to option strongly advocated by ufm. All 3 of that games are maintained by ufm. Question ask on its own: was that change before or after ufm started maintaining them ? And handling them by refusing to give those games ranking system.

And what "method not being popular" says, except "not being popular? Any clues WHY method is not being popular? Any chance it has something to do with one very vocal developer advocating against that method?

Yet only what BGA did about that "disaster system" hiding ELO points for coop games. That "disaster system" still works in at least 1 game.

Are they? Their profile says they are a developer for Tranquility, but I don't see anything for Forbidden Island or Yokai, though they do have a Yokai: Septet, but that says it was available a couple months after that post, so it doesn't seem to be that. Were they a developer for it at some point and passed it on to someone else later, or something else?

Are you implying Ufm single-handedly determines the popularity for cooperative games? That's a bit over the top. Though despite their involvement in several of these games and having to handle various player inputs, etc. you seem fine disregarding their thoughts on the subject.

In the end, it doesn't look like any of the systems really worked that well. They all got hidden by BGA.

As for whether the system actually works for Pandemic, hard to say, apparently not enough to prevent it from being part of the group hidden.

[tarongot]

Are they? Their profile says they are a developer for Tranquility, but I don't see anything for Forbidden Island or Yokai, though they do have a Yokai: Septet, but that says it was available a couple months after that post, so it doesn't seem to be that. Were they a developer for it at some point and passed it on to someone else later, or something else?

Seems I was wrong about Yokai, but Tranquility and Forbidden Island game page clearly says that ufm is maintaining them. So question remain valid: if that was ufm who changed method used in them.

Are you implying Ufm single-handedly determines the popularity for cooperative games? That's a bit over the top. Though despite their involvement in several of these games and having to handle various player inputs, etc. you seem fine disregarding their thoughts on the subject.

No, I'm implying that ufm aversion to ranking for coop games, can have impact on other developers or BGA decision to not make ranking for those. Never said that is only thing or even main that influence that decisions. Read what is written, don't try your twisted interpretation.

Ufm thoughts barely touch on merits of ranking system. And they are based mainly on how, in ufm opinion, system and cooperative games are perceived. As something different, not as a game but as fun for children. Similar to yours, as I mentioned before.

In the end, it doesn't look like any of the systems really worked that well. They all got hidden by BGA.

As for whether the system actually works for Pandemic, hard to say, apparently not enough to prevent it from being part of the group hidden.

You think BGA looked into all coop games on case by case bases, and evaluate all theirs "point systems" ( I refuse to tittle ufm "experience points" a rating), and made decision of being hidden or not, on that bases? That is one "over the top", and big joke really.

[ChiefPointThief]

Yes. You were wrong about Yokai. As a player myself I am a “master” with only 200 games so it doesn’t use the +1 system. And I picked up the game after elo was hidden so I don’t know what format it uses.

And ceaseless you have at least three games mentioned here (crew, crew deep mission, & the gang) in which players are expressing how the +1 formula is harmful for the communities. Arguing that you don’t believe there is a “perfect” system in place shouldn’t stop from implementing a better system. AND the system can be changed at any point. Like the arguments I’ve made with elo as it pertains to non co op games. There is no reason to go a lifetime with inadequate ranking systems simply because we can “get by” using them.

[tarongot]

Yes. You were wrong about Yokai. As a player myself I am a “master” with only 200 games so it doesn’t use the +1 system. And I picked up the game after elo was hidden so I don’t know what format it uses.

But that's not matter I was wrong. That matter I never even mentioned.
I was wrong posting that ufm is maintaining this game. So its unlikely that ufm is directly responsible for its "points gaining system" change.

So Yokai is using not +1 for win, but more. Maybe even different values for different difficulties, but that is still only a point gaining system, not ranking system. Unless you can lost points, and a real lost, not like one in Mini Rogue, it only affects how fast you get to "master rank".

[Ceaseless]

Are you implying Ufm single-handedly determines the popularity for cooperative games? That's a bit over the top. Though despite their involvement in several of these games and having to handle various player inputs, etc. you seem fine disregarding their thoughts on the subject.

No, I'm implying that ufm aversion to ranking for coop games, can have impact on other developers or BGA decision to not make ranking for those. Never said that is only thing or even main that influence that decisions. Read what is written, don't try your twisted interpretation.

Ufm thoughts barely touch on merits of ranking system. And they are based mainly on how, in ufm opinion, system and cooperative games are perceived. As something different, not as a game but as fun for children. Similar to yours, as I mentioned before.

My "twisted interpretation" I think I've humored you enough. I'll be nice and reply to the other stuff in your post, but it's not worth wasting my time further. You just want to vent and gloss over the real issues.

Are they? Their profile says they are a developer for Tranquility, but I don't see anything for Forbidden Island or Yokai, though they do have a Yokai: Septet, but that says it was available a couple months after that post, so it doesn't seem to be that. Were they a developer for it at some point and passed it on to someone else later, or something else?

Seems I was wrong about Yokai, but Tranquility and Forbidden Island game page clearly says that ufm is maintaining them. So question remain valid: if that was ufm who changed method used in them.

Guess I was looking at Ufm's developer list but overlooked the game page's-maintained list. So they're tied to some but not all of the changed members.

In the end, it doesn't look like any of the systems really worked that well. They all got hidden by BGA.

As for whether the system actually works for Pandemic, hard to say, apparently not enough to prevent it from being part of the group hidden.

You think BGA looked into all coop games on case by case bases, and evaluate all theirs "point systems" ( I refuse to tittle ufm "experience points" a rating), and made decision of being hidden or not, on that bases? That is one "over the top", and big joke really.

Not every case, no, possibly the more popular/noted ones. But what they did see what a structural issue caused by the nature of cooperative games, because despite your insistence to the contrary there are major differences between cooperative and competitive games, and they matter.

And ceaseless you have at least three games mentioned here (crew, crew deep mission, & the gang) in which players are expressing how the +1 formula is harmful for the communities. Arguing that you don’t believe there is a “perfect” system in place shouldn’t stop from implementing a better system. AND the system can be changed at any point. Like the arguments I’ve made with elo as it pertains to non co op games. There is no reason to go a lifetime with inadequate ranking systems simply because we can “get by” using them.

Someone still has to actually do these things for the purpose of the hypothetical "upgrades", it's not like just performing these attempts is some guaranteed net positive. If it ends up being a waste of time, it's sucking away from better things that could have been done.

[Meereseule]

Exactly in at least both of the The Crew Games and in the Gang it’s extremes harmful and that’s why there is so much toxicity. It‘s not ok, that people can’t see how experienced players are. And in the Crew this +1 doesn’t make sense at all. Because you can play one easy mission for 30 Seconds and get +1; and you can play a whole campaign with 50 missions and hours! of game play (10 missions are like 1 hour and at higher missions eben more) and still get only +1, because both counts as one player before it ends. In the Gang there are also different difficult levels. You can play a standard game with 3 people or a masters game with 6 people and they are all counted as the same. Also I just saw a person on the Crew who already played 20 games and still didn’t understand basic rules, making beginner mistakes. How can we know, if the range is so extreme? It takes away fun and time.

[tarongot]

Update: The Gang has new ELO system. It has positive points for wins and negative points for lost. Details are still hidden, so same as in Pandemic and others, I don't know details.
And it seems to happened before that talk started, and to this day not many have noticed that.
And yet it is, another game with something that might be real ranking, and enough simple ranking for all coop games, it has it and it is working. And BGA or World didn't crashed, as some people here, and some game developers tried to convince you all.