General concenus regarding notes in deck-based games

[Fernando901]

I'm opening a new discussion on this subject as I was unable to find any previous discussions speaking about keeping notes as a tactic while playing games on BGA. Be it the in-game notes section or a 3rd party program or physical pen and paper; and be it casual play, or arena/tournament play...

I want to know what GBA community's view is on this matter: for a start, whether people think note taking is, or isn't, okay during games; and whether people even care about this at all to begin with... As well as whether or not there is an official statement/rule regarding the use of notes during games, either somewhere deep in the terms of service, or in some other thread or announcement I was unable to find.

Here are the key points of discussion:

• Do you know whether there are any written/unwritten rules within this community at large, regarding the use of notes on the platform? If so, do these rules apply differently depending on the game mode? (Casual, Arena, Tournament)

• Community rules aside: Do you have any personal rules that you follow of your own volition regarding the use of notes? How flexible/variable are these rules, if any?

• Do you ever discuss with other players (friends, opponents, tournament opponents, random users) about whether notes are or should be allowed during games, or for any specific games?

• Is note keeping during your games something that ever worries you during your average BGA use time? Do you think I'm worrying too much about this?

I'll be glad to hear what everyone and anyone has to say regarding this matter, and especially so if you are able to share any insight, big or small, regarding how your experience with the community has been in respect to the subject of this discussion.

Edit: Formatting edits... I'm never making use of the List function when posting on my phone ever again

[FrankJones]

This has been discussed at length in various posts.

Nothing in the BGA rules of conduct say we cannot take notes. What else is the "notes" feature supposed to be used for?

Some turn-based games could take weeks. Are people supposed to remember every detail of the game instead of using the notes feature provided by BGA?

[Fernando901]

My current views on the subject: keeping notes about certain actions/game variables is, mor eoften than not, something that goes against the original design of the game; it strips an element of uncertainty and awareness that these games may rely upon to raise the stakes, and to raise the skill ceiling... potentially giving the player perfect information about certain aspects of the game. There is a reason many games' rulebooks and manuals specifically state that players may not review the discard pile.

As for whether people should or shouldn't do this on BGA: I think it's okay for note keeping to be present as long as everyone is aware that this is an option available to everyone, and as long as either everyone does it, or everyone is okay with the others players being allowed to do it... The problem I see, then, is that I have no idea whether the other players know that they could be keeping notes, or if they are keeping notes or not, or if they would be okay with me (or any other players) keeping notes during their game or not... Which means I can't ever tell what would be the more appropriate thing to do unless I ask each room individually.

In summary, things feel a bit too chaotic/wild... I suppose a possible solution would be to notify the other players whether you are making use of the BGA personal notes tool, coupled with a honor/trust rule that limits note keeping to the BGA notes section; or some kind of indicator that players could toggle on if they intend on taking notes (on BGA or elsewhere) as to make the playing field clear, and possibly another setting for that indicator, or a game room setting that states a preference for or against note keeping during the game (or neutral, if you don't care either way).

Both of these would rely on player trust, of course, and wouldn't stop someone from taking notes even if had been previously agreed against, but perhaps the karma system could work as support for this feature in a indirect way, as high karma/healthy community members may be inclined to follow these honor/trust rules if they are ever brought up

[Fernando901]

Nothing in the BGA rules of conduct say we cannot take notes. What else is the "notes" feature supposed to be used for?

Grudge-keeping for blocking my longest road and access to wheat, obviously
But on a more serious note, you COULD write general/specific strategies that you seek to pursue later on... You don't have to write a play-by-play of the entire match. And besides, the last played moves button already allows you to see what has happened recently... Up to a limit, if I am not mistaken. Whether this is because of technical limitations, or to prevent players from attaining perfect information by reviewing every event, I cannot say.

Some turn-based games could take weeks. Are people supposed to remember every detail of the game instead of using the notes feature provided by BGA?

You beat me to my statement... But as I said a moment ago, I am not inherently opposed to note taking; I am, however, opposed to players having different expectations, and possibly being unclear on their intentions when joining a game. If everyone could tell whether I intend on taking notes or not, and I could tell whether anyone else intends on taking notes or not, and whether they are okay with me taking notes, I would be more than happy.

But with that out of the way, I would appreciate your personal views on the matter as well as any insight about what the community might think, from your personal experience, if you would be so kind as to contribute any insight on the three last questions of my post. Thanks in advance!

[nik592]

I think note-taking is more intended for turn-based play, but I'm not sure how easy or hard it would be to disable that for RT games. I know about it, but rarely use it (probably to my detriment). That said, if you're at the table with someone who can remember cards played/etc., that person has a natural advantage similar to note-taking and would use it in everything (it'd be impossible not to). Note-taking somewhat levels the playing field in those cases (as does house-ruling for hidden, trackable information to sometimes be played open, which is what my friend group does IRL).

You're probably correct that all players should know note-taking exists to take advantage of or not as they choose, but there is some onus on the player to understand the system they're playing under. If you're in an IRL tournament that happened to allow note-taking and just didn't notice the notebook, I'm not sure you could argue that other players had an unfair advantage. You might complain that the organisers should have made it more obvious, but online people often skip tours anyway (not that I think BGA has one, but I'm saying if they did), so it can be hard to make everyone aware of all features. If you're playing a tournament or something, obviously you can make a point of indicating the notes feature to all players. Even then, I'm sure some people would still miss it.

[FrankJones]

My current views on the subject: keeping notes about certain actions/game variables is, mor eoften than not, something that goes against the original design of the game;

This is the most frequent point I see made on this subject.

But, numerous aspects of playing a digital version of a physical game (potentially) go against the spirit of the original design.

Things that are generally included automatically in many BGA games that would not be present in the physical game:

1) Automatic tracking of tags/icons for games in which this is relevant.
2) A visual display of the number of cards in the discard pile and draw pile.
3) Visible cost reductions on the cost of cards in games for which this is a game mechanic.
4) Visible indicators of whether a card is playable or not based on meeting or not having met specific criteria.
5) For some games, a visible display of the score (Though this is a related source of controversy).
6) Visible indicators of the number of resources each player has.

In summary - playing a game on BGA is already very different from the experience of playing the game on the physical board.

Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, the biggest key difference, for turn-based games, is the duration - lasting anywhere from days or possibly weeks, possibly while playing several other games simultaneously including multiple instances of the same game - which is most definitely not what most game designers of physical games had in mind. Who could reasonably be expected to remember important information compared to playing that same game in one sitting at the dining table with the physical game board and components?

As for whether all players are on equal footing: The notes section on the BGA game page is not hard to find. It's not hidden. Players should be aware of it. I would find it cumbersome and awkward to begin each game by saying, "Hey, are you familiar with the notes section? I intend to use it, just so you know."

[FrankJones]

There is a reason many games' rulebooks and manuals specifically state that players may not review the discard pile.

I very much doubt that reason is, "I [the game designer] wanted to turn this thematic strategy game into a memory contest". In many cases, I would guess the reason is actually, "Some of the discards were secret information never visibly shown to any players except the player who discarded it."

In Terraforming Mars, for example, looking through the discard pile would be absurd; it would mean knowing exactly which cards in each draft were actually purchased by the opponent. But, if my opponent in a "real-life" game of TFM said, "Is it okay if I keep a note sheet of the cards I personally discarded," I wouldn't object. I don't see the harm.

[nik592]

But, numerous aspects of playing a digital version of a physical game (potentially) go against the spirit of the original design.

Things that are generally included automatically in many games that would not be present in the physical game:

1) Automatic tracking of tags/icons for games in which this is relevant.
2) A visual display of the number of cards in the discard pile and draw pile.
3) Visible cost reductions on the cost of cards in games for which this is a game mechanic.
4) Visible indicators of whether a card is playable or not based on meeting or not having met specific criteria.
5) For some games, a visible display of the score (Though this is a related source of controversy).
6) Visible indicators of the number of resources each player has.

In summary - playing a game on BGA is already very different from the experience of playing the game on the physical board.

Very true. Many times I've been holding a card IRL and realised I could have played it several turns ago because I miscounted the pre-requisites for it. That happens a lot less on BGA. There are games where an objective card comes with a running tally of how many points it will currently earn you at the end of a game to help you select which objective card to keep! Otherwise you're doing that math in your head and under time pressure, I'm sure I often get it wrong (and sometimes I don't even try, I just go on gut, and find at game end that my gut was completely wrong).

[tbhp]

or some kind of indicator that players could toggle on if they intend on taking notes (on BGA or elsewhere) as to make the playing field clear, and possibly another setting for that indicator, or a game room setting that states a preference for or against note keeping during the game (or neutral, if you don't care either way).

This could work in a friendly game where you are familiar with your opponent and you both agree to play the game a certain way. But how do you expect things to happen when it is a competitive game? People aren't gonna care what the toggle says. People already don't care if you are in favor of kicking out people or not. They'll just kick you out without asking.

The site doesn't offer a toggle to signal if you agree with kicking out people, because they know people wouldn't make use of it anyway. The only people who would take note of it are those who already would have asked without it anyway. So for the same reason, I think having a toggle for the keeping notes thing would be pretty useless.

[tbhp]

I think note-taking is more intended for turn-based play, but I'm not sure how easy or hard it would be to disable that for RT games. I know about it, but rarely use it (probably to my detriment). That said, if you're at the table with someone who can remember cards played/etc., that person has a natural advantage similar to note-taking and would use it in everything (it'd be impossible not to). Note-taking somewhat levels the playing field in those cases (as does house-ruling for hidden, trackable information to sometimes be played open, which is what my friend group does IRL).

But then again, leveling the playing field is not desirable if judging people on their ability to remember things is the whole point of the game.

This makes the concept of turn based rather absurd for those types of games. No one is gonna remember things over such a long duration unless they, well, take notes. And so everyone takes notes and the game isn't about memorizing anymore.

There is another interesting aspect to consider, which is that when you play a game in real life, you may have to remember the things that happen when other players make their moves. But when you are playing turn based, you are usually not watching when the other players make their moves. This could make some games unplayable in turn based, because the whole memory aspect becomes impossible to play like it was intended.