Karma too generous – this needs to change

[MrBigos]

Hi all

I have read some topics about karma, some people think it's too punishing, some that it's to generous and personally I am on that side.
I have also read, that there were many attempts to made some changes, but people very ofter just reply with "It's not going to change", so my question here is: Why?

Personally I play fast paced games, usually 8-12 turns a day. Would prefer 24 turns a day, but I almost cannot due to problems I am going to mention. I love to test new games just to consider buying them. I don't care about the ELO. I don't care if I win or not (but I always try to). I am just having fun testing mechanics. And I like to see how my score compares to others' players.

And the biggest problems I have is that very often people don't make their moves in the pace they agreed to.

First of all, I always set tables that I create to allow only highest Karma. But for BGA, high Karma is >75% (sometimes 80%). Considering how Karma system works currently, this is NOT high karma in my opinion. I see many players, who have Karma around 90%, with like 10 abandoned games and 30 timeouts. Such players usually join a lot of tables. Some tables have 1 move per day, some have 24 moves per day. Such players don't care about checking settings. They just clicks "Play". I am pretty sure they are never gonna timeout on slower tables, but they are always kicked from fast tables. If such player joins my game, it's like 95% chance he will be kicked after few moves due to the timeout. And such player is finishing those slower tables eventually, so his Karma is bumped up.
Secondly, if I create a table, fast paced, high karma, but the game is pretty niche, so nobody is joining, BGA is closing and reopening this table, but with different settings. Now the Karma is lowered. People join the table. How it usually ends up? People making like 3 moves, timed out, game abandoned. So I waited days for people to join my table, only to wait another few days to get the table abandoned and the cycle repeat. I would prefer that BGA keep the table settings and I would like to wait even a week, but eventually find people want to play the game at the pace I've set.
And lastly, there is this shady behaviour, not happening very often, but still. I personally never kick out the player if game is past 50%. I would rather enjoy the rest of the game, even if it's not being played and the pace I wanted. I would like to see my final score. But I've already been in the situation, when two players have timeout, one is clearly winning (-5h on the clock), second is not (-20h on the clock). And we play like full game, there is only one move left. And the second player kicks out the first player and leaves. Second's player Karma: 100%, because he just timed out few games...
And a cherry pick, I also fell in this trap. People often join fast paced games and they are able to play fast, but they miss the field with playing hours, so I am constantly playing with people from another part of the globe, who make fast moves, but not within my daytime, so they timeout eventually.

To summarize this long complaining, I would personally like following actions to be taken:
- All games should have possibility to allow players only wih 100% karma (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234723)
- If you timed out more 2 times, your karma should go maximum up to 95%, until BGA profile page report states you haven't timed out (it's like 30 or 90 days, I don't remember) (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234724)
- If table is automatically closed and reopened, it shouldn't change karma settings (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234725)
- Players, who timed out in a game, shouldn't be able to kick other timed out players from this game (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234727)
- System should detect playing hours declared in table and display a warning ("Do you really want to join?"), if your timezone is mismatched with playing hours (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234730)

[Meeplelowda]

To summarize this long complaining, I would personally like following actions to be taken:
- All games should have possibility to allow players only wih 100% karma (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234723)
- If you timed out more 2 times, your karma should go maximum up to 95%, until BGA profile page report states you haven't timed out (it's like 30 or 90 days, I don't remember) (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234724)
- If table is automatically closed and reopened, it shouldn't change karma settings (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234725)
- Players, who timed out in a game, shouldn't be able to kick other timed out players from this game (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234727)
- System should detect playing hours declared in table and display a warning ("Do you really want to join?"), if your timezone is mismatched with playing hours (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234730)

I voted for some.

Your last one is possibly a duplicate of another suggestion, https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=57379. But the problem with that other one is the warning is not the main suggestion. It's just an afterthought at the end. But it's worded better than yours. As BarnardsStar pointed out on the page for your suggestion, you're making a narrow assumption of what is "normal" by saying there should be a warning "where playing hours are set in a night." There should be a warning that the game has playing hours, and someone joining a fast turn-based game should have to specifically click on an acknowledgement of that warning. But the warning should NOT be based on whether the playing hours are at night. Many people have different work and sleep schedules.

[Ceaseless]

To summarize this long complaining, I would personally like following actions to be taken:
- All games should have possibility to allow players only wih 100% karma (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234723)
- If you timed out more 2 times, your karma should go maximum up to 95%, until BGA profile page report states you haven't timed out (it's like 30 or 90 days, I don't remember) (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234724)
- If table is automatically closed and reopened, it shouldn't change karma settings (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234725)
- Players, who timed out in a game, shouldn't be able to kick other timed out players from this game (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234727)
- System should detect playing hours declared in table and display a warning ("Do you really want to join?"), if your timezone is mismatched with playing hours (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=234730)

I didn't read your bug reports, so I'm only going off of what you have stated in the quote under the assumption they're close enough.
- Yes
- Could use work. 2 timeouts over 2000 games, for instance, isn't a big deal. Frankly, I'm not sure if timing out itself needs the recording, what if the players mutually agreed to play slower? Maybe the time setting was too fast for everyone, or upon getting a really interesting game they chose to slow down. Forcing a 95% for such things seems overkill. I think it would be better to focus on games they were expelled from instead.
- Yes
- I'd change this to players can't kick players with less time out than them. Setting a game so that no one can kick each other out is just begging for abuse. If everyone has timed out even once, the losing player can stall forever.
- Warnings for potential time conflicts seem fine but may require a public tutorial for how to set time hours on BGA so players can avoid an automatic system getting things mixed up.

[MrBigos]

Thank you for your comments. You have some valid points and that's why I wanted discussion in first place, because I am not an oracle

Your last one is possibly a duplicate of another suggestion, https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=57379. But the problem with that other one is the warning is not the main suggestion. It's just an afterthought at the end. But it's worded better than yours. As BarnardsStar pointed out on the page for your suggestion, you're making a narrow assumption of what is "normal" by saying there should be a warning "where playing hours are set in a night." There should be a warning that the game has playing hours, and someone joining a fast turn-based game should have to specifically click on an acknowledgement of that warning. But the warning should NOT be based on whether the playing hours are at night. Many people have different work and sleep schedules.

I agree. I also thought that displaying a warning for someone who normally plays at night might be annoying (he will always see the warning). As improvement here, I see two options:

1. Allow a player to specify his normal playing hours in settings and base warning on that setting
2. Display playing hours always in table list, not only in table settings

The second option was not stated by me initially in the post, but after seeing BarnardsStar's comment, this is the real pain point. Playing time is burried somewhere in table settings, so a player is very often excited, that there is "24 moves table" ready to be joined, but he totally misses the playing hours, because of this excitement (it was me sometimes).

Could use work. 2 timeouts over 2000 games, for instance, isn't a big deal. Frankly, I'm not sure if timing out itself needs the recording, what if the players mutually agreed to play slower? Maybe the time setting was too fast for everyone, or upon getting a really interesting game they chose to slow down. Forcing a 95% for such things seems overkill. I think it would be better to focus on games they were expelled from instead.

Partially agree. I saw some post that people lose karma on long games, but then they jump into Flip7 and boost it within the days. The same with timeouts. Imagine a player played 20 long games (Ark Nova, Terraforming Mars), always timed out in first few moves, but then he played 1000 times Flip7 without timeouts. And you want to play 24 moves a day Ark Nova with 100% karma players. You don't want this player to join the table.
Also I don't agree with mutual decission to slow down. There is no UI for that, so we don't know if players agreed to slow down or maybe they just accepted it, as there were no better alternative. I very often let timed out players to continue if the game is already pass 50%. I don't agree to that, I just accept that, because I would rather have my game finished than ended after a half.
But I do agree that maybe instead of timeouts, this 95% karma limit should count expelled games, not timed out.

I'd change this to players can't kick players with less time out than them. Setting a game so that no one can kick each other out is just begging for abuse. If everyone has timed out even once, the losing player can stall forever.

Totally agree. This looks like a better solution.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Agreed. I had a player abandon 2 games of a tournament in White Castle due to letting the clock run out. They have a history of 41 time outs on their account out of 360 games, yet their Karma is 100%

I would have reached 1st or 2nd place in one of those games, and the other I am not sure, but regardless the tournament proceeded by "thinking time" rather than victory points at the point of abandonment or allowing the rest of the players complete the game. This is frustrating and certainly not a good "first tournament" experience...

[MrBigos]

Some statistics. I've took all my games that ended in last 22 days (so since creating of this topic).

94 – games I've played in total
59 – games I've finished and nobody timed out
13 – games I've finished, but somebody timed out. Luckily it was past 50% of the game and players quietly decided to carry on
22 – games that timed out and someone decided to kick other (sometimes at early phase, sometimes near the end)

This gives 37% chance that game will time out and 23% chance that game will not finish at all. It's not minor, it's huge.
It means that every third game I play will not run in a declared pace. And when it happens, it has 63% chance to be abandoned.

The record is El Grande, where I have play streak of 6 consecutive games that did not finish.

Solutions are there. What I proposed should generally work. I will really love to push the changes and make BGA better place.

[Jellby]

13 – games I've finished, but somebody timed out. Luckily it was past 50% of the game and players quietly decided to carry on

Luckily? Penalties are only applied if the person is expelled. If the other players just decide to continue, there is no penalty and they'll continue to time out.

[MrBigos]

13 – games I've finished, but somebody timed out. Luckily it was past 50% of the game and players quietly decided to carry on

Luckily? Penalties are only applied if the person is expelled. If the other players just decide to continue, there is no penalty and they'll continue to time out.

For me it is luckily. If somebody run out of time in first 20% of the game, I just kick him, because I don't want to play a title for couple weeks.
I don't care about penalties, nor ELO. I only care if I had a good time, playing some strategy and can see if that strategy was working.
So if someone times out, but the game is in already after 50%, I just breathe a sigh and hope that every other play will continue and we can actually finish (there are situations, that game carries on and someone kicks in last turns, so annoying).

[KenFin1]

Is this related to any game(s) in particular OP? Looking at your game history stats your most played games are not ones I play so it may be there are issues in some of these (which iirc I'm told can take a while) that I haven't encountered in the ones I play.

I guess the problem with the karma system and trying to make changes to it is that it will affect all games, not just the long ones. What might feel appropriate for marathon games probably won't be for short fast paced games.

FWIW i don't really see the need to change the current system, beyond making sure games have appropriate time default time limits to start with. There are a few I've played where the default added time each turn seems too short once the game gets past halfway and almost inevitably at least one person will time out (the games usually finishes though unless someone gets trigger happy and tries to expel from a losing position just to avoid defeat).

Edit. I've commented in the bug reports but several of your issues are actually bypassed if you use the original "playnow" lobby to open tables and join games. It is better at retaining game settings (including karma), show more information on players and game settings/time requirements up-front and so forth. A lot of us commented back-in-the-day that the new game pages were unnecessary and did not show enough information to be a suitable replacement (even before they were launched to the public). So far as we could tell the comments were not acted upon.

[MrBigos]

I disagree with most of the points.

Is this related to any game(s) in particular OP? Looking at your game history stats your most played games are not ones I play so it may be there are issues in some of these (which iirc I'm told can take a while) that I haven't encountered in the ones I play.

As I can see you play mostly:

• Real time games
• 1vs1 games
• Turn based games with few moves a day

So it won't hit you. In real time all playes move very fast. 1vs1 games are very personal and if somebody joins the table, he is really willing to play (those games are usually the ones that players moves ultra fast, 40+ moves a day). And on slow turn based games, timing out is not very likely to happen, because player need to do just one move a day and occasionally 2-3 moves and his time limit goes back to max.

I guess the problem with the karma system and trying to make changes to it is that it will affect all games, not just the long ones. What might feel appropriate for marathon games probably won't be for short fast paced games.

My proposed karma changes are backwards compatible. Adding 100% karma setting to the table is an additional option. If a host doesn't like it, he can stil use >75% karma setting. Limiting karma to 95% – again, it won't affect current tables with >75% karma setting. It will only affect new 100% karma setting.

FWIW i don't really see the need to change the current system, beyond making sure games have appropriate time default time limits to start with. There are a few I've played where the default added time each turn seems too short once the game gets past halfway (...)

That's my point. I really want to play 24 move per day tables. But players doesn't move 24 times. They move like 4, maybe 6. Some people join such table and they move twice a day... this is annoying.
Time added each turn is appropriate. What isn't are the players who join the table declaring they will move 8/12/24 times per day and they are moving twice.

Edit. I've commented in the bug reports but several of your issues are actually bypassed if you use the original "playnow" lobby to open tables and join games. It is better at retaining game settings (including karma), show more information on players and game settings/time requirements up-front and so forth. A lot of us commented back-in-the-day that the new game pages were unnecessary and did not show enough information to be a suitable replacement (even before they were launched to the public). So far as we could tell the comments were not acted upon.

So you are telling me, that we should leave the problems as they are, because there is second UI which handles those? Why just not fixing game pages instead?
And the way I use BGA cannot be done in old lobby. I have categorized all my games into lists, favourites, but also "Worth checking", "Always wanted to play" etc. If I go to my list and want to start a game from this place, I need to go to game page.
So please, do not force me to go to the list, copy the title and go to old lobby. Just fix the game pages.