Unnecessary Moves

[Kaznaka]

In the picture above, it is your turn to play. If you gave a 1 to the orange player to get r1 to play, should Orange play k5? From Orange's pov, it is a trash bluff that touches chop. Was it unnecessary? Yes. Therefore, it should do something extra: play card next to the trash as a trash push.

[_mg6maciej_]

Any convention is for a group of players to decide to include or not.

Why it should:
- more plays = more fun

Why it shouldn't:
- simplicity:
-- follows the principle saying plays should stop as soon as bluff is revealed
-- there are situations when such an unnecessary clue is the only feasible clue following good touch principle
-- there are situations when touching only chop will be known trash the the clue receiver, but not someone else, for example 3r & 5m played, red clue touching chop followed by discard tells someone else is holding 5r, but not revealing where exactly
-- if any of the above is valuable enough and thus would result in only a single play, that creates exception to exception, reverting to how a trash bluff clue is responded to most of the time, creating opportunities for even more human error
- there is no need for bga conv to attempt to be more efficient, human error and BDRs are the most common causes of game loss

[Malo77]

If you clue a know trash on chop it is called Trash Push with H-Group.

You move is a bit similar as The Trash Push
as using the trash on chop in a similar way and logic would reveal that next card is playable.

Marking a trash (known or deduced after a blind play response) on chop could be seen a an intended Trash Push.

It seems interesting to try and use.

If no trash push is intended a simple direct clue has the same effect.

[_mg6maciej_]

Here is a good example of "unnecessary" trash bluff and the only possible clue that makes a single card play:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 359&goto=9

If the team was playing with this convention, how does loafbit determine it's just a single play (exception to exception) and not double play (exception)?

And another example where expecting another play from unnecessary trash clue leads to a game loss when a player is not familiar with it:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 59&goto=62

Game could have been easily won if the next player clued 1r directly.

[Kaznaka]

Here is a good example of "unnecessary" trash bluff and the only possible clue that makes a single card play:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 359&goto=9

If the team was playing with this convention, how does loafbit determine it's just a single play (exception to exception) and not double play (exception)?

And another example where expecting another play from unnecessary trash clue leads to a game loss when a player is not familiar with it:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 59&goto=62

Game could have been easily won if the next player clued 1r directly.

In your first example, it wasn't unnecessary. It was necessary because you can't use 5. In my example, there's no reason you can't use a 1.

In your second example, trash pulls are a little bit trickier. It's close to the end game and you have to determine it's a pull and not a trash chop move. On the other hand, trash push is always clear.

[Malo77]

Here is a good example of "unnecessary" trash bluff and the only possible clue that makes a single card play:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 359&goto=9

If the team was playing with this convention, how does loafbit determine it's just a single play (exception to exception) and not double play (exception)?

And another example where expecting another play from unnecessary trash clue leads to a game loss when a player is not familiar with it:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... 59&goto=62

Game could have been easily won if the next player clued 1r directly.

In your first example, it wasn't unnecessary. It was necessary because you can't use 5. In my example, there's no reason you can't use a 1.

In your second example, trash pulls are a little bit trickier. It's close to the end game and you have to determine it's a pull and not a trash chop move. On the other hand, trash push is always clear.

In example 1 : a 5 reclue (5w) on Loafbit would have achieved the same bluff effect i think. No need to use the the chop trash card to bluff.

In example 2 : I agree a direct 1 clue would have been simpler and clear
Could this be a clue for trash pulling 1r and reverse trash finessing the 5g ? (or what is the correct name ?) is it valid ?