Is there a more toxic game than Spades?

[1soyboy]

it needs a major overhaul in ranking or granting more nils or 150% bag limit. the current format just drags on and on while toxic players who are generally one trick ponies of classic games get agitated for no reason. " don't play arena" they say. while not realizing they wont have anyone to play with. sore losers.

[Silverlocke]

I’m used to kitty whist which has no penalty for over tricks. I’m sorry you had an annoying experience but this helped a newbie better understand the nuance in bidding. Thanks

[azcats2002]

Responding to Franks comments.

I will put up my skill and record versus anyone.

11 bid. Yes. You should start every 11 bid with the intent to take every trick. Why? Many reasons.

You could have A92 clubs. Perfectly fine to bid that. But lets say you toss a queen of hearts to avoid bags and plan on that ace.
Then one of the opps leads AKQ diamonds. The guy behind you has 1 diamond. He then gets to toss his only 2 clubs. Now you play ace of clubs. Bam! It is trumped. And you are set.


I see this all the time. You take tricks aggressively, cause if you dont, and you lose 1 trick you counted, you might not get a second chance. Better to win with queen, possibly set the opps. Or maybe toss ace of clubs if no set possible.


Also, if you play versus players like me, and i sense you are trying to not bag, i will play medium cards and trap your partner knowing you wont take a trick. Or i might toss a non spade, if my p has a mid winner, knowing you wont play high or trump.

This happens a lot also.


Generally, even when you try to set 11 bid, it is easy to back out and split bags.
Just like it is easy to avoid bags on 11 bid and then end up with 1 or 2 bags anyway.

[azcats2002]

Also, regarding bidding.

Bidding is more than counting possible automatic tricks. Also, Franks comments about underbidding.

Bidding is about odds.

If you have 2 aces and all the rest are 3-9…you take that into account. If you lose an ace, you have no chance to win another trick.

But if you have 2 aces and all 9-Qs, well, you can lose an ace and still might get lucky with J and Q winners.

Same thing with spade distribution.

If you have AKQ clubs, AKQ diamonds, And AKQ hearts and 0 spades…you dont bid 6+.

Because if you have 0 spades, everyone has 4 spades (one person has at least 5) or someone has 6 spades. And if your p is the one with 3-4 spades, you will be in trouble.

So, you bid 3-5 depending on if you are 1st or last to bid. (Yes. Position matters. Like poker). And then you go for a set if 11 bid or higher.

[azcats2002]

One last subject.

I can have the exact same hand, and i can bid several different ways.

What if i am first to bid?
What if i am 3rd?
What if they nilled?
What if i bid last?
What if opps bid would put them over 500?
What if I bid 1 more and we can get to 500?
What if they have 459?
What if we have 459?
What if we have 480-230 lead?
What if they have 390-450 lead?
What if i am last and the 3 others bid. 2-2-2 and i have a perceived 3 bid?


Before i even consider my hand, those situations will dictate my bid and how i will play.

[FrankJones]

Responding to Franks comments.

I will put up my skill and record versus anyone.

If only there was a way to actually do this by demonstrating that your approach is more effective that the approach I am advocating.

Oh, wait, there is. The website records results and there is an Elo leaderboard. So, let's put your skill and record versus "anyone".

I don't remember my exact Elo without checking, but It's higher than 303. Does that mean I am a better player than you? No. But it's possible.

I'm just not sure how someone with a 303 Elo can so confidently and repeatedly declare one method to be 100% superior to a slightly different approach.

If you take 2 bags in an 11 bid in a hand in which there was sufficient information to realize that a set was ipossible, you have made a mistake in the hand.

I'm not saying "never go for a set in an 11-bid." Most of the time, sure, go for the set. I', saying, "use skill and experience to recognize when it just isn't going to happen", and, "recognize when 2 bags has a high likelihood of being a deciding factor in the outcome of the game."

[FrankJones]

Also, regarding bidding.

Bidding is more than counting possible automatic tricks. Also, Franks comments about underbidding.

Bidding is about odds.

If you have 2 aces and all the rest are 3-9…you take that into account. If you lose an ace, you have no chance to win another trick.

But if you have 2 aces and all 9-Qs, well, you can lose an ace and still might get lucky with J and Q winners.

Same thing with spade distribution.

If you have AKQ clubs, AKQ diamonds, And AKQ hearts and 0 spades…you dont bid 6+.

Because if you have 0 spades, everyone has 4 spades (one person has at least 5) or someone has 6 spades. And if your p is the one with 3-4 spades, you will be in trouble.

So, you bid 3-5 depending on if you are 1st or last to bid. (Yes. Position matters. Like poker). And then you go for a set if 11 bid or higher.

Indeed. This is all basic information. I'm not sure why you are presenting this information as some big newsflash. I've played thousands of hands of spades. I'm aware of this information.

None of this information negates the fact that sometimes it is wrong to go into excessive trick-grabbing mode.

[azcats2002]

Responding to Franks comments.

I will put up my skill and record versus anyone.

If only there was a way to actually do this by demonstrating that your approach is more effective that the approach I am advocating.

Oh, wait, there is. The website records results and there is an Elo leaderboard. So, let's put your skill and record versus "anyone".

I don't remember my exact Elo without checking, but It's higher than 303. Does that mean I am a better player than you? No. But it's possible.

Talking about ELO in spades is pointless. It is like looking at a 1 second frame in 2 hour movie.
In other games, ELO works. But when your success is dependent on other players our ELO can only go so high. Eventually, it sinks with bad run of partners. Most high Non-arena ELO are partners who play together.

You should understand this.

[azcats2002]

Also, regarding bidding.

Bidding is more than counting possible automatic tricks. Also, Franks comments about underbidding.

Bidding is about odds.

If you have 2 aces and all the rest are 3-9…you take that into account. If you lose an ace, you have no chance to win another trick.

But if you have 2 aces and all 9-Qs, well, you can lose an ace and still might get lucky with J and Q winners.

Same thing with spade distribution.

If you have AKQ clubs, AKQ diamonds, And AKQ hearts and 0 spades…you dont bid 6+.

Because if you have 0 spades, everyone has 4 spades (one person has at least 5) or someone has 6 spades. And if your p is the one with 3-4 spades, you will be in trouble.

So, you bid 3-5 depending on if you are 1st or last to bid. (Yes. Position matters. Like poker). And then you go for a set if 11 bid or higher.

Indeed. This is all basic information. I'm not sure why you are presenting this information as some big newsflash. I've played thousands of hands of spades. I'm aware of this information.

None of this information negates the fact that sometimes it is wrong to go into excessive trick-grabbing mode.

Most games, bags are a positive thing. You should know this.

[FrankJones]

Most games, bags are a positive thing. You should know this.

The reason I mentioned Elo is that neither you nor I can realistically point to any specific stats or accomplishments and say, "Well, look at these stats and/or accomplishments, these results indicate that the strategy I prefer had been successfully put into action."

And yet, you are speaking with 100% in saying that you are right and I am wrong. I don't understand your justification for this approach.

It won't change how I play, nor do I expect you will change how you play.

But for less experienced players reading the thread, I want to make sure they see both sides.

Bags: Sure, in a tie game, bags are a tiebreaker. A stupid rule, but that's the rule. Reward the team that bid less precisely.

But it has not been my experience that in most games, bags are a good thing.

1) Taking bags early makes it a lot easier for the opponents to inflict the bag penalty later in the match.
2) Taking early bags makes it difficult to cover a nil bid without making the bag situation worse.
3) Having too many bags can set up a situation in which winning on the final hand requires making exactly a specific bid and taking that specific amount while the opponents have more flexibility. That's a tough spot to be in.