An Ark Nova maximum animals puzzle

[FrankJones]

I like goofing around with puzzles and weird hypotheticals. Ak Nova seems well suited to this. In a different thread, there was discussion of maximum points without playing any animals.

Here, the puzzle is:

"What is the maximum number of animals that can be played in one turn?"

Choose the map, player count, assume whatever CP track and reputation track bonuses you want, and that other players in the game can and will make silly plays as long as they are valid and legal plays.

The answer (what I think is the answer) might be surprising. Unless someone has already posed this experiment before.

[justamjd]

This is the most absurd thing I can think of, but, 17??

*note, I was not aware you could stack the x2 token more than twice actually, so I now withdraw my measly 17

[Erdbeerstaude]

When we assume you have enough money and enclousers and you also have the following sponsors, waza program (play 3 small animals), expert on asia (expoert on america would also work), the ape enclouser sponsor (for x-marker) and archeologist on the commercial harbor map. You start with the first doubler (x2) on build animal. With archeologist you can get all in all 4 times the x2 (3 left you start with the first one). We assume also, you laid your enclousers so that you can get the other 3 doubler with the build of the pavilion when you play an asia animal. We assume also that your oppnents have higher tickets than you and have all der animal build action on place number 3 and all players have upgraded their build action. Also assume all players have five x-marker.
So on your first turn you start with two times 3 small animals. Two of this animals are the hypnosis animals, also 3 of this animals are aisa animals which allows you to get the next doubler marker on your animal build action. So you can all in all play 8 times three animals (build enough small animals which are apes for the x-marker). Afterwards you go with the two hypnosis of the opponents. I think you can just play 2 animals (not 3 anymore). So you can build another 4 animals. Two of this 4 animals are the eagles which gives you another two extra turns, where you can play two times 3 animals. So i guess that makes all in all:
8x3 + 2x2 + 2x3 = 34 animals

[yazavats]

You can also get an x2 from the CP reward track. So the maximum number of animal x2s potentially available on commercial harbor is 5. If another player has an x2 applied on animals you don't get to use it with hypnosis, so that's not a factor. When you stack x2s on an action though you actually get plus one action per token stacked, it's not really a multiplier. I.e, if you have 2 x2s stacked you get 3 actions, 3 x2s stacked is 4 actions, etc. And if you stacked an x2 during the action itself it doesn't trigger after the action. The action goes to power one with the token unspent, so you need an eagle to chain them. For hypnosis, after the first one the opponent's animal action would go to power one, so you would need two x tokens to bring it back to three for the second hypnosis (in a 2 player game, if it’s a 3p game, the third player could also have animals at power three). Figuring out the sequencing is a doozy. Here's my take. Obviously, all the prerequisites are met, e.g. archeologist has been played, that in itself means double science, you have Europe partner zoo, waza small has been played, etc. You would first setup the play by using a sponsors action to play zoo school on the alternative commercial harbor over the left border draw bonus and marketing bonus to play expert on Asia. 1 CP from zoo school would get you the x2 from the CP reward track, second x2 would come from zoo school covering the left border draw bonus, third x2 would come from a pavilion covering a second border bonus. Now you have a triple x2 stack on animals. That's four chained animals actions. Two more x2s are available on the map. Waza small means three small animals per action, so that's 12. Two of those would be adder and cobra for double hypnosis, cobra is an Asia tag so that's one pavilion for applying another x2, so either another Asia tag or a small posturer like bird of paradise, macaw, lesser flamingo, or hawkfish for applying the last x2. Now comes double hypnosis, that's four animals, two of which are eagles and one of which is badger to bring your own animals action back to power 5. Now you have a double x2 stack on animals which is 3 actions, and double determination, so another animals action after the triple action (triple action is at power 5, second determination is an animals action at power 3 after spending two more x tokens). That's four more actions, so twelve more animals. I.e. my total comes to 28 (12 + 2 + 2 + 9 + 3). That's assuming you have enough enclosure space, money, and cards drawn. For each of which there could be a limiting factor. For enclosure space let's assume you have diversity researcher played and build upgraded. You obviously have an aviary built for housing the eagles, it could also house shoebill and one more large bird during the hypnosis action, preferably with a hunt or scavenge action. You could also have a reptile house or an aquarium built, and a petting zoo. As for cards drawn, I don't know if it's possible. You would probably need to have the barred owl hut played and also play all the owls. With waza small you can snap a small animal from the display with each action, so that would help assuming the display is stacked with small animals. As for money, you would obviously need a few hundred in the bank (having ornithologist played for the extra cash infusion with all the birds would be helpful). Anyway, 28 is my total. If someone has a better sequence they can chime in.

[FrankJones]

Okay. Solid analysis so far (though the correct answer has not been given yet):

1) Yes, Commercial Harbor. (And archaeologist, of course.)
2) Yes, maximize the x2 multipliers, which would be 5 of them.
3) Yes, the highest appeal player must have animals in slot 3.
4) I could be wrong here, but starting with small animals is not the way to go. The first animals action should be double eagle. Well, it doesn't need to start with double eagle, but, might as well. At some point, one of the animals actions will be eagle-eagle. Might as well do it first, right?
5) As noted by yazavats, the 2x on opponent's animal card is irrelevant.
6) Yes, a few x-tokens will be needed for the double hypnosis. (Or not if, as yazavats noted, it's a multi player game and two opponents are tied for highest appeal and each have the animals card (upgraded, of course) in slot 3).
7) In fact, a 4-player game is most ideal, because you want to deplete the deck of all sponsors and non-small animals as much as possible. (Ensuring the highest probability of drawing small animals throughout this sequence).
8) That said, lots of cards will be drawn during the sequence. Play a lot of small birds with card draw effects, and have the barred owl hut in play. Also, the Spotted Hyena Compound so you can play small predators and draw cards.
9) I'm not sure why it would matter how many x-tokens the opponents have.
10) Europe partner zoo is not necessary; I did it with only the Asia and Africa partner zoos.
11) "You would first setup the play by using a sponsors action to play zoo school on the alternative commercial harbor over the left border draw bonus and marketing bonus to play expert on Asia" --- also not necessary. Though, leaving the "play sponsor for cash" spot vacant at the start of the sequence does mean being able to play a sponsor at some point just for added fun. But it's not necessary to maximize the number of animals played, unless there's a sponsor that allows us to play an animal, which maybe I didn't think of, but I can't think of a sponsor that would allow an animal to be played.
12) Enclosures is a non-factor. Petting zoo, aviary, reptile house, and the three aquariums alone could fit more animals than the maximum. Yes, Diversity researcher with upgraded build. Any spaces not occupied by those buildings can be filled with size 1 and size 2 enclosures.
13) Money is mostly a non-factor. My sequence ended up costing only $4 per animal on average, including the two eagles. (By having all the discounts and rebates in play.)
14) Waza small animals, of course.
15) Number of small animals is not likely to be a limiting factor. Start the turn with 6 key animals, and perform "cards" action at strength 5 as many times as possible without triggering a break (This would be 7 times in a 4-player game). The hand would be stacked with small animal cards at that point. Ideally, one or more "dig" animals can be played when the display is nearly empty, replenishing the display. The first reef animal should be a card draw, such as the Blackbar Triggerfish, which might be the only one. Additional reef effects can be useful, though not strictly necessary. I was unlucky in that regard, not getting a lot of reef animals.
16) Start the sequence with 5 or 6 small animals in the display. If that is not the case, just have players break for cash and bring new cards out.
17) So, the only real limiting factor is the number of times the "animals" action can be performed.
18) The badger (or any other animals action booster) is not necessary, by the time I needed to move my animals card, I had saved up numerous clevers and other card realignment actions. The only animals that are strictly necessary are the two eagles, the Cobra, and the Adder. The Sun Bear should be included so that an association action can be performed at some point. And depending on the partner zoos, a marine animal with Camouflage to get around a partner zoo requirement if necessary. I started my plan by carrying from round to round both Eagles, the Adder, the Cobra, the Sun Bear, and the Lined Seahorse (might as well get a pouch for 2 extra appeal, even though the appeal is going to be well over 200 and won't matter).
19) Have the highest appeal player(s) sell cards down to just 1 small animal so it can be pilfered during the sequence.

20) Neither 34 nor 28 is correct.

It should be an odd number, since every animals action except 1 will be a Waza small animals sequence.

[yazavats]

4) I could be wrong here, but starting with small animals is not the way to go. The first animals action should be double eagle. Well, it doesn't need to start with double eagle, but, might as well. At some point, one of the animals actions will be eagle-eagle. Might as well do it first, right?

My logic is that any action that includes an eagle doesn't benefit from waza small since eagles are large animals, i.e, you can only play two animals in an action that includes an eagle. So you would want to squeeze eagles into hypnosis actions since those can only be used for two animals anyway, and save your own actions for triple small animals.

8) That said, lots of cards will be drawn during the sequence. Play a lot of small birds with card draw effects, and have the barred owl hut in play. Also, the Spotted Hyena Compound so you can play small predators and draw cards.

Yes, aside from birds (owls in particular) with owl hut combo, small preds with hyena compound activation is another way to proc into extra card draw, provided there is enough space for the compound. I suppose with diversity in play, that shouldn't be an issue.

10) Europe partner zoo is not necessary; I did it with only the Asia and Africa partner zoos.

I agree, Europe partner zoo is not necessary. The requirement for playing the adder can be ignored by either having the ignore requirement token or playing a camouflage animal. Since we want that animal to be small that narrows it down to either seahorse or a symbiosis fish to copy a seahorse. Ignore requirements action card isn't an option since it limits the action to one animal. I don't see how having the Asia and Africa partner zoos contribute to extra animal actions.

By "did it" I assume as a hypothetical. Unless you're saying you have a copy with the expansion IRL and you've manipulated the deck and the game state to make it possible.

11) "You would first setup the play by using a sponsors action to play zoo school on the alternative commercial harbor over the left border draw bonus and marketing bonus to play expert on Asia" --- also not necessary. Though, leaving the "play sponsor for cash" spot vacant at the start of the sequence does mean being able to play a sponsor at some point just for added fun. But it's not necessary to maximize the number of animals played, unless there's a sponsor that allows us to play an animal, which maybe I didn't think of, but I can't think of a sponsor that would allow an animal to be played.

Zoo school/expert on Asia marketing is not necessary. It's just a top of my head way to proc into all five times two modifiers. You could also simply build to get the four modifiers on map. And since one border bonus on the alternate map is plus one rep you could even proc into the fifth modifier on the rep or cp track. Or one of the animals you play gives cp. More than one way to skin that cat.

13) Money is mostly a non-factor. My sequence ended up costing only $4 per animal on average, including the two eagles. (By having all the discounts and rebates in play.)

I agree, since we're manipulating the game state anyway we can manipulate it into giving us all the money we need.

17) So, the only real limiting factor is the number of times the "animals" action can be performed.

That is indeed the crux of this thought experiment. It comes down to how many extra animals actions can be performed in a turn while maximizing the number of animals played for each of those actions. I think there is a concrete and specific limit for the current game, and it is not necessary to figure out the exact order of animals to deduce the actual limit. I will elaborate later.

18) The badger (or any other animals action booster) is not necessary, by the time I needed to move my animals card, I had saved up numerous clevers and other card realignment actions. The only animals that are strictly necessary are the two eagles, the Cobra, and the Adder. The Sun Bear should be included so that an association action can be performed at some point. And depending on the partner zoos, a marine animal with Camouflage to get around a partner zoo requirement if necessary. I started my plan by carrying from round to round both Eagles, the Adder, the Cobra, the Sun Bear, and the Lined Seahorse (might as well get a pouch for 2 extra appeal, even though the appeal is going to be well over 200 and won't matter).

The two eagles and two hypnosis snakes are indeed the four animals necessary since they're the only ones that can grant extra animal actions. Seems like you've sequenced out the exact order of all animals. That is more sequencing than I'm willing to do. But I doubt there is only one possible sequence or combination of animals.

19) Have the highest appeal player(s) sell cards down to just 1 small animal so it can be pilfered during the sequence.

Pilfering is also a valid way to get extra card draw. It probably plays a role in your sequence, but as I've said, since your sequence isn't the only possible sequence, it's also possible it isn't necessary.

20) Neither 34 nor 28 is correct.

It should be an odd number, since every animals action except 1 will be a Waza small animals sequence.

I can't tell whether your call of correctness is dogmatic without knowing your sequence. Let me elaborate on the formerly mentioned hard limit.
The number of animals played in a single turn depends on the maximal number of extra animal actions we can take in that turn. So what are the ways to get extra animal actions. Eagles and hypnosis snakes. That's four extra actions. That leaves the times two modifier we can put on animals. What is their maximum? We've agreed it is five. Here comes a point I wish to make, and you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. "Times two" is a misnomer, it is not actually a multiplier. What it does is it gives you plus one action on the action you apply it to. You don't multiply one action to two, then two to four, etc. You just add plus one action with each modifier. Following that logic, the maximum number of extra actions five "times two" modifiers can give is five. Thus, the maximum number of animal actions you can take in a turn is 1+4+5, so 10. Of those 10 actions, with 8 of them you can play three animals with waza small, and with two of them you can only play two because they're hypnosis actions (and contain eagles) so no waza small. Hence my total is 28.

If you think that is wrong, i.e. you can play more, then you can post your sequence so we can judge whether it is legal. Of course, if you want this thought experiment to continue for others, you don't have to rush it, but I don't know how much more engagement you're going to get. I suggest you join the emu discord for these type of discussions regarding ark nova specifically. discord.gg/uUSQE2BEte

[Erdbeerstaude]

My Analysis was based on only the standard game, without waterworld. And yes, i was not Sure how the doubler stacks on the animal play card.

[FrankJones]

4) I could be wrong here, but starting with small animals is not the way to go. The first animals action should be double eagle. Well, it doesn't need to start with double eagle, but, might as well. At some point, one of the animals actions will be eagle-eagle. Might as well do it first, right?

My logic is that any action that includes an eagle doesn't benefit from waza small since eagles are large animals, i.e, you can only play two animals in an action that includes an eagle. So you would want to squeeze eagles into hypnosis actions since those can only be used for two animals anyway, and save your own actions for triple small animals.

8) That said, lots of cards will be drawn during the sequence. Play a lot of small birds with card draw effects, and have the barred owl hut in play. Also, the Spotted Hyena Compound so you can play small predators and draw cards.

Yes, aside from birds (owls in particular) with owl hut combo, small preds with hyena compound activation is another way to proc into extra card draw, provided there is enough space for the compound. I suppose with diversity in play, that shouldn't be an issue.

10) Europe partner zoo is not necessary; I did it with only the Asia and Africa partner zoos.

I agree, Europe partner zoo is not necessary. The requirement for playing the adder can be ignored by either having the ignore requirement token or playing a camouflage animal. Since we want that animal to be small that narrows it down to either seahorse or a symbiosis fish to copy a seahorse. Ignore requirements action card isn't an option since it limits the action to one animal. I don't see how having the Asia and Africa partner zoos contribute to extra animal actions.

By "did it" I assume as a hypothetical. Unless you're saying you have a copy with the expansion IRL and you've manipulated the deck and the game state to make it possible.

11) "You would first setup the play by using a sponsors action to play zoo school on the alternative commercial harbor over the left border draw bonus and marketing bonus to play expert on Asia" --- also not necessary. Though, leaving the "play sponsor for cash" spot vacant at the start of the sequence does mean being able to play a sponsor at some point just for added fun. But it's not necessary to maximize the number of animals played, unless there's a sponsor that allows us to play an animal, which maybe I didn't think of, but I can't think of a sponsor that would allow an animal to be played.

Zoo school/expert on Asia marketing is not necessary. It's just a top of my head way to proc into all five times two modifiers. You could also simply build to get the four modifiers on map. And since one border bonus on the alternate map is plus one rep you could even proc into the fifth modifier on the rep or cp track. Or one of the animals you play gives cp. More than one way to skin that cat.

13) Money is mostly a non-factor. My sequence ended up costing only $4 per animal on average, including the two eagles. (By having all the discounts and rebates in play.)

I agree, since we're manipulating the game state anyway we can manipulate it into giving us all the money we need.

17) So, the only real limiting factor is the number of times the "animals" action can be performed.

That is indeed the crux of this thought experiment. It comes down to how many extra animals actions can be performed in a turn while maximizing the number of animals played for each of those actions. I think there is a concrete and specific limit for the current game, and it is not necessary to figure out the exact order of animals to deduce the actual limit. I will elaborate later.

18) The badger (or any other animals action booster) is not necessary, by the time I needed to move my animals card, I had saved up numerous clevers and other card realignment actions. The only animals that are strictly necessary are the two eagles, the Cobra, and the Adder. The Sun Bear should be included so that an association action can be performed at some point. And depending on the partner zoos, a marine animal with Camouflage to get around a partner zoo requirement if necessary. I started my plan by carrying from round to round both Eagles, the Adder, the Cobra, the Sun Bear, and the Lined Seahorse (might as well get a pouch for 2 extra appeal, even though the appeal is going to be well over 200 and won't matter).

The two eagles and two hypnosis snakes are indeed the four animals necessary since they're the only ones that can grant extra animal actions. Seems like you've sequenced out the exact order of all animals. That is more sequencing than I'm willing to do. But I doubt there is only one possible sequence or combination of animals.

19) Have the highest appeal player(s) sell cards down to just 1 small animal so it can be pilfered during the sequence.

Pilfering is also a valid way to get extra card draw. It probably plays a role in your sequence, but as I've seed, since your sequence isn't the only possible sequence, it's also possible it isn't necessary.

20) Neither 34 nor 28 is correct.

It should be an odd number, since every animals action except 1 will be a Waza small animals sequence.

I can't tell whether your call of correctness is dogmatic without knowing your sequence. Let me elaborate on the formerly mentioned hard limit.
The number of animals played in a single turn depends on the maximal number of extra animal actions we can take in that turn. So what are the ways to get extra animal actions. Eagles and hypnosis snakes. That's four extra actions. That leaves the times two modifier we can put on animals. What is their maximum? We've agreed it is five. Here comes a point I wish to make, and you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. "Times two" is a misnomer, it is not actually a multiplier. What it does is it gives you plus one action on the action you apply it to. You don't multiply one action to two, then two to four, etc. You just add plus one action with each modifier. Following that logic, the maximum number of extra actions five "times two" modifiers can give is five. Thus, the maximum number of animal actions you can take in a turn is 1+4+5, so 10. Of those 10 actions, with 8 of them you can play three animals with waza small, and with two of them you can only play two because they're hypnosis actions (and contain eagles) so no waza small. Hence my total is 28.

If you think that is wrong, i.e. you can play more, then you can post your sequence so we can judge whether it is legal. Of course, if you want this thought experiment to continue for others, you don't have to rush it, but I don't know how much more engagement you're going to get. I suggest you join the emu discord for these type of discussions regarding ark nova specifically. discord.gg/uUSQE2BEte

When using the hypnosis, you can still do 3 small animals with Waza. So, it probably makes no difference when the eagle-eagle move is played; I just found it easier to get it out of the way to make sure I didn't screw that up later in the sequence.

The Asia and Africa zoos served no particular purpose, they just happened to be the two zoos I picked early in the game, for whatever reason. Actually, I probably took Asia for the Sun Bear. But you're right, Asia and Europe are the two best zoos, since we know the Europe one will be needed if we don't want to have to rely on a camouflage. Africa did end up helping play two of the animals, including the Barbary Macaque for the pilfer.

Regarding my "when I did it" remark - I actually set up a 4-player hotseat game on BGA and "did it".
Unfortunately, when I was on literally the last move of the final player's final turn (after a break, which got triggered by one of my small animals jumping), the game returned an error when I tried to confirm literally the final click of the game.

I suspect the hundreds of "moves" in the final turn created some sort of overflow error causing the database to be unable to complete the logging of the sequence. I had something similar happen in an experimental game of Earth.

But, the game state is viewable, so it's possible to see my map and my zoo and the N animals I played.

Exactly, lots of ways to get the necessary placement bonuses. I found is safest to just get them all before I started because I would have been beside myself if I screwed it up. (It's not exactly fast or easy to st up.) The only thing I would have done differently is kept the "play sponsor" spot available and left a big sponsor available just to make the sequence more fun. Science Library would have been a big one.

The only sequencing I did was eagle eagle, cobra, adder. I could hold six cards, so I kept the sun bear and the camouflage marine animal (I knew I would need it because of the zoos I picked). The remainder of the animals were just whatever came up in the display and whichever ones I drew with the cards actions. Again though, I had stacked the deck with small animals by having the other 3 players play as many large animals as possible without going over 100, and by playing almost all the sponsors. I made sure to play the camouflage animal early to make sure I didn't accidentally play it as a second animal in an action. If more than one camouflage is needed, a symbiosis marine animal is likely to show up at some point in the sequence.

I actually messed up, I left one of the hot seat players with no valid play that wouldn't trigger end game or advance break, so I had to do the cards action with that player, missing out on a cards action for myself. I should have left at least 3 empty spaces on each hotseat map so that I could do a 5 x-token build 1-size enclosure when I hit 5 x-tokens and has to pick an action.

Correct, the pilfer wasn't necessary, but very helpful. I left two of the hotseat players with a single small animal that had "dig" ability so that after I had snapped 5 small animals from the display, I could be guaranteed a dig action to replenish the entire display.

The [incorrect] reason I said it has to be an odd number:
One of the actions will be "Eagle eagle". That's 2 animals. The other animals actions will all be 3 animals because of Waza.

But, of course, you are right, I have no idea why I said that, because it is wrong. I was thinking that [3 plus any number of twos] would always be odd (which is true).

But here, we are dealing with 2 plus some number of 3s, which will alternate between even and odd.

So, disregard my statement that it has to be an odd number.


But it will be of the form 2 + 3N, where N is the number of times we take the animals action minus 1. My apologies for that silly error.

You are correct, 10 animals actions is the limit (or is it???). Let say it is, for now.

But 9 of those actions will be playing 3 small animals. Only the double eagle action will be 2 animals. So, you calculated everything right except the final arithmetic, which is 2 + (3)*(9). 29 animals.

[I doubt you actually did any incorrect arithmetic, but rather, I think I saw you mention somewhere in your explanation that one of the actions would only be 2 animals, but, as notes, all except the double eagle can be triple-animal plays.]

I did in fact play 29 animals in my game, the 29 animals can be seen here:

https://boardgamearena.com/tableview?table=913582079

Here's how it could be 32: It would take some luck and cannot be guaranteed at all.

1) Include the sun bear.
2) Start the sequence right before a reshuffle, but not so close to a reshuffle that it happens before playing one of the hypnosis animals.
3) At some point in the sequence, do the association action from sun bear and do a release project, releasing one of the hypnosis animals into the soon-to-be-reshuffled discard pile.
4) Then trigger a reshuffle and draw as many cards as possible, and hope to re-draw the hypnosis animal.

Either way - you basically solved the puzzle. Well done!

[Credit to my buddy kevinsbane who helped a lot with several aspects of this crazy exercise.]

[FrankJones]

My Analysis was based on only the standard game, without waterworld. And yes, i was not Sure how the doubler stacks on the animal play card.

yazavats is indeed correct. Each x2 mean on extra action.

Think of it is the most basic sense. You have a single x2 on your animals card. You do the action. Then, you remove the x2 token to do it again. So, each token gives one additional use of the card. That doesn't change just because we have several x2 tokens, though it would be funny in a home game if someone said, "Hey, I have 5 "x2" tokens, and 1x2x2x2x2x2 = 32, so I get to do the action 32 times!"

Being that it is possible to have more than one such token, maybe the token would be better displayed as a "+1" token, since that's what it actually does: It allows you to do the action one more time.

[yazavats]

But 9 of those actions will be playing 3 small animals. Only the double eagle action will be 2 animals. So, you calculated everything right except the final arithmetic, which is 2 + (3)*(9). 29 animals.

Okay, so my error was in thinking waza small can't be utilized during hypnosis. It apparently can since that's what BGA allows. I suppose even though you're using an opponent's action, the 2+1 criteria still applies since it's not something determined by the action itself. It's a niche scenario which I've never utilized myself so forgive my ignorance. I mostly play waza small for money or stalling, if ever. I'm not familiar with the hot seat game mechanic you speak of. I wasn't aware you can manipulate the game state to that extent on BGA outside of making a tutorial.
Reshuffling is also a very niche thing I haven't considered. I've never been in a game where the deck ran out of cards. It would also be possible to scavenge a released animal from the discard with a scavenger bird, but alas, there is no small scavenger bird, so it would require sacrificing one animal played for the miniscule chance of scavenging a hypnosis snake.

Okay, thanks for the new insights.