How to play against scientific ?

[Loooser]

Hello,
When someone goes for scientific card it seems he always win.
Except when one or 2 other players try to do some scientific too. When it happen they both loose.
So should we accept to fight to be 2nd or can will still fight for the win ?
It seems sometimes both players agreed to hide scientific cards but it doesn't happen much and most of the time it's a bad choice for you.

[jjgllg]

Mostly just dont overthink about it. There are three ways in general:

1. Just score more points. Optimize your own game and you can often pull ahead even though someone gets a good science run
2. Plan ahead so you can play or hide their cards, either resources or green while not sacrificing your own possibilities
3. Just ignore the situation and secure the 2nd place behind the science player. Usually the best option if there is zero awareness or cooperation from the other players in the table.

On some wonders and some situations you can also play a green game, either scoring one set or building a single chain, even if it is not your main focus. Pick carefully and you can limit green player options a lot, since they often have just one particularly good card in that hand. It is better to snatch yourself a 5 point green instead of a 6 point blue, if you are ahead in the game and that green would score a lot more for the green player.

Then again, you can be a green player yourself. 5 or more players and you can make a lot in it even if you have competition. Especially if your wonder is not expected to rush for green, you might catch them by a surprise and pull ahead before they realize what you were up to. Memorize what resources you will need to play efficiently. In early game you can also force yourself to become the main green player and then others need to take another path. This is often risky, but can win you a difficult table setup if you get lucky. Worth a shot if you have a bad starting position and your opening hand does not improve your general situation. You can't win every game.

[Davidshum]

Hello,
When someone goes for scientific card it seems he always win.
Except when one or 2 other players try to do some scientific too. When it happen they both loose.
So should we accept to fight to be 2nd or can will still fight for the win ?
It seems sometimes both players agreed to hide scientific cards but it doesn't happen much and most of the time it's a bad choice for you.

So in my opinion depending on your wonder. If you wonder gives you huge advantage in science that guarantees you to win in science then go for it. If not, go for civilian, and when you make your wonder bury the science.

[losbrugno]

Mostly just dont overthink about it. There are three ways in general:

1. Just score more points. Optimize your own game and you can often pull ahead even though someone gets a good science run
2. Plan ahead so you can play or hide their cards, either resources or green while not sacrificing your own possibilities
3. Just ignore the situation and secure the 2nd place behind the science player. Usually the best option if there is zero awareness or cooperation from the other players in the table.

On some wonders and some situations you can also play a green game, either scoring one set or building a single chain, even if it is not your main focus. Pick carefully and you can limit green player options a lot, since they often have just one particularly good card in that hand. It is better to snatch yourself a 5 point green instead of a 6 point blue, if you are ahead in the game and that green would score a lot more for the green player.

Then again, you can be a green player yourself. 5 or more players and you can make a lot in it even if you have competition. Especially if your wonder is not expected to rush for green, you might catch them by a surprise and pull ahead before they realize what you were up to. Memorize what resources you will need to play efficiently. In early game you can also force yourself to become the main green player and then others need to take another path. This is often risky, but can win you a difficult table setup if you get lucky. Worth a shot if you have a bad starting position and your opening hand does not improve your general situation. You can't win every game.

I don't fully agree with everything said here.
1. Well the entire point of this topic is how to stop full green players, so saying score more points is just preposterous. If a green player goes unpunished they'll 100% win the game because the points grow exponentially the more green you play, so for example with 3 full sets they are already at 48 points, and they only played half the card available for the entire game (9/18). You simply can't score more points, you need to actively do something about it. You can win every war, play every best guild available and still finish second.
2. I agree with this point, but the planning stars even before the first card you play: you need to get a grasp about which wonders are stronger with green strategy, and these are in order Hali, Babylon and Ephesos. Hali is just the best wonder in the game, can potentially play 3 cards from the discard and the stage wonders are perfectly suited for a green strategy; Babylon plays differently, but it can still be devastating with the second stage giving you a free symbol, never underestimate a good player playing Babylon; Ephesos is the worst of the three but the advantage here is that you start off with press, I would say the most important grey resource for green strategy for different reasons, one of them being school age 2.
So when facing these wonders you should always consider they could go for green, so just play proactively in this direction.
3. This makes perfect sense, but it's more of an emergency exit when the table fails to stop the main green guy, especially in arena games.

My main takes here to help you out are basically 2:
1. First of all, the main way to stop or at least to try to counter green is to win wars against them, this is a staple, you can't afford to let them chain free reds or get cheap war wins, this is something you should always do, otherwise everything else you could think of doing to stop them would be useless if they beat you on reds.

2. So after assessing that you did correctly addressed the main green player at the table, that you need to stop them or you'll lose, and that you need to win wars against them, we can start talking about active strategies.
The most basic error to do is to play trading posts pointed towards them, they are already planning to go full green so they're probably not playing many brown resources so it's a wasted play to do, and moreover you are gifting them crucial gold to enhance their strategy. You should always dry out of gold the green guy, that has to be a concern for them, their plays need always to be on the edge of their chain capacity, so that's one way to make their life harder. For context one of the main way to counter the green player in 3p is for the others to play trading posts towards them, to isolate the green guy.
Next up don't play grey resources for them, it's just a stupid play to do, you are just giving them an early advantage that lets them play early greens age 1 without the need to actively play these grey cards.
Lastly try to break their chains, and this can be achieved in two ways, by hiding 1 or 2 key green cards or by splashing green yourself. How can you do this efficiently? Try to focus on 1 particular symbol, depending on what the green guy is doing, for example the cog is the easiest one to hide or splash, because of their scarcity age 1 and age 2 in 4p and 5p. Don't try to create a green war, it doesn't work, try instead playing for example even 1 or 2 cogs, if the game lets you do so, because maybe sometimes it's better to hide for example with giza whilst sometimes is better to splash for example with ephesos, babylon or cartaghe, or even with alex or olympia, it mostly depends on the player count and on the wonders on the table.

So yeah, stopping science players is not easy, you need the table support and to make the right call, and this is something worth thinking about it while playing, so not overthinking it is not a great suggestion in my opinion

[jjgllg]

Mostly just dont overthink about it. There are three ways in general:

1. Just score more points. Optimize your own game and you can often pull ahead even though someone gets a good science run
2. Plan ahead so you can play or hide their cards, either resources or green while not sacrificing your own possibilities
3. Just ignore the situation and secure the 2nd place behind the science player. Usually the best option if there is zero awareness or cooperation from the other players in the table.

On some wonders and some situations you can also play a green game, either scoring one set or building a single chain, even if it is not your main focus. Pick carefully and you can limit green player options a lot, since they often have just one particularly good card in that hand. It is better to snatch yourself a 5 point green instead of a 6 point blue, if you are ahead in the game and that green would score a lot more for the green player.

Then again, you can be a green player yourself. 5 or more players and you can make a lot in it even if you have competition. Especially if your wonder is not expected to rush for green, you might catch them by a surprise and pull ahead before they realize what you were up to. Memorize what resources you will need to play efficiently. In early game you can also force yourself to become the main green player and then others need to take another path. This is often risky, but can win you a difficult table setup if you get lucky. Worth a shot if you have a bad starting position and your opening hand does not improve your general situation. You can't win every game.

I don't fully agree with everything said here.
1. Well the entire point of this topic is how to stop full green players, so saying score more points is just preposterous. If a green player goes unpunished they'll 100% win the game because the points grow exponentially the more green you play, so for example with 3 full sets they are already at 48 points, and they only played half the card available for the entire game (9/18). You simply can't score more points, you need to actively do something about it. You can win every war, play every best guild available and still finish second.
2. I agree with this point, but the planning stars even before the first card you play: you need to get a grasp about which wonders are stronger with green strategy, and these are in order Hali, Babylon and Ephesos. Hali is just the best wonder in the game, can potentially play 3 cards from the discard and the stage wonders are perfectly suited for a green strategy; Babylon plays differently, but it can still be devastating with the second stage giving you a free symbol, never underestimate a good player playing Babylon; Ephesos is the worst of the three but the advantage here is that you start off with press, I would say the most important grey resource for green strategy for different reasons, one of them being school age 2.
So when facing these wonders you should always consider they could go for green, so just play proactively in this direction.
3. This makes perfect sense, but it's more of an emergency exit when the table fails to stop the main green guy, especially in arena games.

My main takes here to help you out are basically 2:
1. First of all, the main way to stop or at least to try to counter green is to win wars against them, this is a staple, you can't afford to let them chain free reds or get cheap war wins, this is something you should always do, otherwise everything else you could think of doing to stop them would be useless if they beat you on reds.

2. So after assessing that you did correctly addressed the main green player at the table, that you need to stop them or you'll lose, and that you need to win wars against them, we can start talking about active strategies.
The most basic error to do is to play trading posts pointed towards them, they are already planning to go full green so they're probably not playing many brown resources so it's a wasted play to do, and moreover you are gifting them crucial gold to enhance their strategy. You should always dry out of gold the green guy, that has to be a concern for them, their plays need always to be on the edge of their chain capacity, so that's one way to make their life harder. For context one of the main way to counter the green player in 3p is for the others to play trading posts towards them, to isolate the green guy.
Next up don't play grey resources for them, it's just a stupid play to do, you are just giving them an early advantage that lets them play early greens age 1 without the need to actively play these grey cards.
Lastly try to break their chains, and this can be achieved in two ways, by hiding 1 or 2 key green cards or by splashing green yourself. How can you do this efficiently? Try to focus on 1 particular symbol, depending on what the green guy is doing, for example the cog is the easiest one to hide or splash, because of their scarcity age 1 and age 2 in 4p and 5p. Don't try to create a green war, it doesn't work, try instead playing for example even 1 or 2 cogs, if the game lets you do so, because maybe sometimes it's better to hide for example with giza whilst sometimes is better to splash for example with ephesos, babylon or cartaghe, or even with alex or olympia, it mostly depends on the player count and on the wonders on the table.

So yeah, stopping science players is not easy, you need the table support and to make the right call, and this is something worth thinking about it while playing, so not overthinking it is not a great suggestion in my opinion

I am aware my answer is an oversimplification, and aimed for a more of a beginner player than someone who is actually competitive like me and you. Some who regularly pushes 400-500 elo already knows how to play against science heavy strategies and would not have to ask a question like this, i also didnt go into specifics on purpose, but i object the idea that YOU always have to do something. Say you have a 4 player game, it is enough that ANY ONE of the three other players needs to hide one green, once in all three ages. That already does much of the work, so each other player can hide one and already hamper the green a lot. then again, you absolutely can win many games against a green player, if you get a good run otherwise. It is not guaranteed, but both of you are likely to score 60 or more, and it might be a coin toss who ends up having the game. in casual games, this is how most games go. Also most casual players are not super efficient when they go green, they usually leave a gap or rely on luck to get one specific card, and if they miss it, they dont have resources or money to afford a replacement. Many times, especially in higher level games, someone else does at least some of the anti green work and if you dedicate your own game to stop the green you are most likely to hurt your own progress more than anyone elses. If you to the heavy lifting, other two can freeload and pull ahead of you in non-green points. I dont mean that anything you say is wrong. You put a lot of attention to detail and all, thats good, but answers are sometimes more or less simple than we think. 48 green in itself is not enough to win the game and often green players lack any backup scoring opportunities and give up red easily. their neighbours can score easy green against them, and then land a philosophers guild and that is already a lot to beat.

My point after all is that often people, including me, think too much about why htey lost a specific game. Once it is just a bad run of cards, then we made a small mistake which punishes us once but other times it doesnt, etc. I personally feel my worst streaks of games are exactly because of overthinking about what other players will do and how do minimize my chances of bottling the game. Often, back to basics and doing it well will get one back on the track and more experimental ideas should only happen in a positive mood.

[jjgllg]

But if we go into deeper thoughts one thing that needs way more attention on casual games is resource denial. Usually people just play any cards that would help them, but sometimes not playing a specific resource, most commonly paper, next to a player who is known to go green, and even throwing the paper can be a better option than playing it, because that will slow down the green a lot, if they are not next to ephesos. Sometimes, if they missed a first age green, say it was the scriptorium, they need two stones and a loom to take the the library. in this situation, denying the stone might be the right choice. And if paper was scrapped, they also need to play two cards to be able to play even the school. This is exactly what i mean with science efficiency. if other players make the green player to build a lot of resources, then they have less turns for greens. Halikarnassos is usually going green, but they need two bricks for a stage, hali is very reliant on stages, so denying the brick can do all that is needed to stop their green madness. It is not just about the green cards, but also about money and right resources. One must also be aware of a green backup strats: often if i try to go green, and other players are trying to stop it, i switch to chained reds on age two and still end up winning

if you are opposite to an expected green player, one tricks is to play a crucial gey yourself, even if you dont need it early in then game, you will need it on age 3, and you deny if from the green, also, if that player is still going green, other players are likely to buy that grey resource from you, making you money in the process as well. if you are straight across a green, a bad thing is that they can get all of grey and isolate you, and the other players will not play that grey because they know they beat you if they drain you, even if it meand that the green player is going to win, so yes, there is alot to think about inside of a game, but generally speaking, there is no magic trick that will always fix everything in a game like this, and looking for such is likely never going to work every time.

[FSKFSK]

If nobody tries to block the science player, they win. If you're the only one blocking the green player, then one of the other two players will win.

One possibility is to try and finish one set by the end of Age 2. That's taking some cards from the science player without ruining your scoring.

Another thing I see people do is collect tablets. This works because tablets are the most plentiful symbol, and you can collect 2 of them in Age 2. This strategy isn't that good if you only get 3 of them, because spending 3 picks for 9 points isn't that great.

Gears are the most rare symbol. At 4p, there are only 4 gears, 5 compasses, and 6 tablets. If you can bury two gears, now the science player isn't going to be able to make 3 sets, unless they get scientist's guild or are babylon.

One nice position to be in is to have the science player passing to you in Age 3 (on your left as displayed on BGA). Now you're going to get great picks, as the science player is forced to take science. I.e., the science player will be taking science and passing you 7-8 point blue cards or good guilds.

If you are next to the science player, take a couple of military and try to score some cheap military wins.

If you're in a position where the science player is passing to you in Age 2, it's hard to block them. It doesn't pay to block them early in Age 3, because you're wasting time building your wonder instead of scoring the high point cards that are usually available early in Age 3.