Illegal layered finesse ?

[AlexT2067]

https://ibb.co/4nBHG6Bj
Kinda new to layered finesse, in this scenario can I clue 4/3 white to the left player ?
He plays the 5 then top player blind play the 1 red, realize it was not the intended 2 and would then dig to the 2.

In my head, I then clue left player into red and left player, because he see the 1 was blind played from finesse position, knows he have the 3 white and top player will dig into the 1w, so need to clue both 2 (blue and white) ?

Left player instead play the 2red and top one bomb the 1white (no mistake from top player, he just dig into the 2) !

I know that all cards from layered should be playable into the 2, can I perform such a tricky layered that will require some correction ?
Can I intentionally let the top player bomb to dig into the 2 ? Could mistakes be considered as a valuable ressource ?

It was probably just better to reverse finesse red into the 1 instead of that tricky white clue.

[Arrigo II]

I would say it's illegal, yes. In Umirek's position, I since i don't see a playable 2w (not even behind a layer), I would try to play 2w myself.
Even if it worked, there is no real advantage compared to the reverse since you still need an extra clue to correct.
Reverse seems the best clue to me here.

[AlexT2067]

But with the 2white instead of the 1 white position that's a perfectly legal layered finesse, isn't it ?

[Romain672]

Waah, my post is so long. The situation is much more complex than it seem.

So firstly there is context around those two white cards. If they come from a bluff, then you can know w3. If they come from a w1+w3+w4 clue we got very few info on them.

Here is the priority of cards to play from a clue:
1) prompt (saved cards) of others players [like blue on b3 on left player to get b2+b3]
2a) finesse's position of others players [like red on r2+r5 on the left player to get r1+r2]
2b) the previous point include layered's finesse, but we got none here*
3) prompt on themselves [like 3 on the left player would without context ask to bomb w4 as w2 then play w3]
4) self finesse on themselves [like from context negative w2 on w4 and 3 on the left player would make left player try to play w2 in their finesse's position so would bomb r2]
5) known bluff on themselves [like if r2 got negative white, and not playing it would cause a bomb from the top player]


*Here the top player got r1+w1+w2, and because of w1, self finesse w2 isn't allowed.
If you clue w4 with 4, then already it's ambiguous, I believe the priority is to play w3 first (priority 3) then to play your finesse's position (priority 4). But if the other white card got negative 2, or if the context is enough strong to rule out w2 (and it's possible on that spot), then now you know you can't have it prompted (priority 3), so if your finesse's position (priority 4) don't have negative white, you play your finesse's position as w2, and then play your saved card as w3 (priority 3).

But with the 2white instead of the 1 white position that's a perfectly legal layered finesse, isn't it ?

So now you open layered's finesse. And yes, it work.
So if you clue 4 on w4, then now you have w2 in layered's finesse's position of top player (priority 2b), and so left player should assume w3+w4.
And so they should either play g5 or clue the bottom player.
Note that r2 isn't gotten here, you only get r1+w2+w3+w4 from this clue.



Make sure you understand what I wrote until here before going deeper, but it's advanced's stuff so feel free to skip it.
Finally, let's talk about the pass bluff (read hesitation blind-play if you are not familiar with it).
It's when your previous player ask you to blind play your finesse's position, you got another play, the next player got another play in finesse's position, and you don't play your finesse's position in purpose to make the other player think they got finessed. And you play the initial bluff's target the following turn.
(hgroup in their rules have pass bluff illegal with bluffs, because it's not a common move, and you could be duplicating the card you try to get. But here from context, if you both got r1 in finesse's position then 1 to top player seem great and the best clue. And so I would assume left player don't have r1 in finesse's position)

We take back the picture's position, and assume you clue 4 on w4 with w3 having negative w2, and r2 not having negative w2.
Now from left player's pov, they assume they have w2+w3+5+g5+w4. But they see a wonderful r1.
One thing they can do is on purpose since they got a play here (g5) is to not play into it to try to get r1. So they play g5.

From the left player's pov: (r2 is in reality w2)
The top player will see that w2+w3+w4 was gotten, but left player didn't played into it. With some trust, if there was no reason to get an extra clue fom the g5's play, they should assume left player don't want to play w2 because they see another w2 in top player's hand. And so as a result, top player plays r1 as w2.
Next turn bottom player do anything unrelated (discard/clue b2).
Then left player can now play their w2 which is in reality r2, and now that top player see that w2 has been played from left player, they should not goes deeper. And they can discard/play b2.

From what is really present on the game: (r2 is r2)
The top player see that you clued left player for w2+w3+w4, but w2 is missing. So they assume they hold w2 and play their finesse's position: r1.
Then you do something unrelated, but you can't clue else that will confuse people.
Then left player play r2 as w2. Left player can't be layered so that work.
But now from top player's pov, it's tricky because we got an r2 play coming from nowhere, and even if they understand what happen, the initial clue is illegal because the pass bluff is optionnal. And so something is wrong. You can reasonnably assume they will understand/play it safe and stop digging for w2 but that's tricky.
If it was a 4/5 players game that would definitively be a bad clue imo because there is too many things going on.
In 3 players you only have two hands to check when a clue is received so weird clue like that has a way higher chance to work.

So weirdly enough, if you know well your teammate's that clue could work thanks to the pass bluff. Still, it has some risk involved because r2 isn't playable directly. And remember it require w3 to have negative w2. But I don't believe that's what your planned

[AlexT2067]

Both white were unclued, I take the picture after clueing both white.
The blue2 was clued previously to bluff a card in finesse, then somebody clue my blues to prompt the 2, so i know left one is a blue3.

So left player doesn't see any white2 in any finesse/layered finesse position, so I guess he could have blindly play the white3 and bomb.
Because he have the 5green to play first i assume he would first play the 5 and then top player will play the 1red in finesse, so left player will understand that the focus was on a white 3.

I did that because left player have a play move (5) and top player have both the playable red1 and white2(but not exactly where it was supposed to be)
Without the play move on left hand I wouldn't even try it.
As I said, red clue was probable better, left player play the green5, and top player the red1.