Retaliatory Red Thumb

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sourisdudesert
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Joined: 23 January 2010, 22:02

Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hi,

Thanks for your comments.

We are indeed considering to replace the current reputation system by something more simple like this other website https://www.daysofwonder.com/online/en/play/karma/

What do you think about this?
intrepid
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Joined: 19 January 2015, 01:51

Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by intrepid »

took a look at what ur possible looking at.as long as bga doesnt let players abuse discimination this would help.i feel no one bad or good with behavior or play should be discriminated against.where all just not going to be happy,so please help the players that actually support you.THKS Again for all ur hard work.
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senatorhung
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by senatorhung »

sourisdudesert wrote:Hi,

Thanks for your comments.

We are indeed considering to replace the current reputation system by something more simple like this other website https://www.daysofwonder.com/online/en/play/karma/

What do you think about this?
that karma automatic system is definitely more simple, but just because intrepid finishes off a game of hearts doesn't mean i ever want to sit at a table with him again.

intrepid is a one-trick pony haranguer when other players at his hearts tables are playing the game as the ELO system encourages it to be played. it's fine that he has a diff opinion about how the game should be played, and his forum topics that lobby for such are valid, but he should not be criticizing other players in the game who play for the best result possible for themselves.

the current thumb system allows you to avoid players who make the gameplay NOT FUN - insults, haranguing at the play of other players, waiting until the last second to play each move in realtime, kingmaking, etc. the karma system only rewards finishing a game, so if you quit a game in disgust, YOU get the karma penalty instead of the miscreant. and the miscreant is free to do the same inanity at the next table and the next and the next ...

if i am running a table under the current system, i will eject any players that i have personally red.thumbed. and if someone has a sizable percentage of red thumbs (> 20%) as intrepid does, i generally eject them as well. i'll stay at a table of 6 nimmt! or saboteur when there is someone that i have red.thumbed sitting in, but not in a game with 4.players or less. it's just not worth the aggravation.
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DrKarotte
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by DrKarotte »

Could both be possible?

Karma as automatic system, visible to everybody and a means to restrict tables.

The thumbs as private system, only visible to the player who gives them. This could be used to mark players you personally don't want to play with. I know that there is the private comment function, which could be indeed used additional to the thumbs, but the thumbs have the advantage of being quickly applied and easily seen.

The thumb system as used at the moment has some disadvantages, which could be solved with a double system:
a) A player must be mature to use it wisely.
b) The thumbs must be given manually; as people usually do something when they are upset I think that the ratio between green and red thumbs may not reflect the reality (but I must admit that it would be virtually the same when someone has 10 red thumbs against 500 green ones or 5000).
c) The thumbs are for the player in all his games. Contrary to the karma system which only is about finishing a game the (red) thumbs are given differently in the various games.

If thumbs are private nobody cares about a).
As the system works automatically b) is no problem.
The comment function in combination with a thumb could help about c).
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by sourisdudesert »

DrKarotte wrote:Karma as automatic system, visible to everybody and a means to restrict tables.

The thumbs as private system, only visible to the player who gives them. This could be used to mark players you personally don't want to play with. I know that there is the private comment function, which could be indeed used additional to the thumbs, but the thumbs have the advantage of being quickly applied and easily seen.
This is more or less what we have in mind. Make the thumb system private so everyone only sees his own opinions (or at least negative ones).
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senatorhung
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by senatorhung »

sourisdudesert wrote:
DrKarotte wrote:Karma as automatic system, visible to everybody and a means to restrict tables.

The thumbs as private system, only visible to the player who gives them. This could be used to mark players you personally don't want to play with. I know that there is the private comment function, which could be indeed used additional to the thumbs, but the thumbs have the advantage of being quickly applied and easily seen.
This is more or less what we have in mind. Make the thumb system private so everyone only sees his own opinions (or at least negative ones).
the problem with making the thumbs private is that you lose the 'wisdom' of the crowds. it is not just the number of red thumbs that i look at for players that i have not played with before, but the PROPORTION of red thumbs to overall thumbs. someone with 10 green thumbs to 5 red thumbs ... new player still learning the ropes, no biggie. 100 green thumbs to 50 red thumbs ... that's a big warning sign. those same 50 red thumbs versus 1000 green thumbs .. back to being no problem. THAT is the information that is being lost by going private.

as i said, someone who finishes games, but makes the game a horrible experience for everyone else involved ... that is what gets lost in the karma system. sure, *I* know never to play with that person again, but others who haven't had the benefit will get messed up in their games in the future.
Last edited by senatorhung on 08 April 2016, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.
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LudoH
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by LudoH »

I must say that I also do not like the idea to have only private red thumbs: I like to know what people think of other players joining my game; this could be in addition with automatic statistics (we already have the leave and timeout statistics, but we could have more ...).
Overall, I like to know that people like to play with somebody before playing with him/her ... and I think people should know that if they are rude they might get a red thumb.

However, having a private red thumb (which could be a yellow one) would also be a great thing, but I think it should be in addition to the existing red and green.
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qpenguin
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by qpenguin »

When I first started this topic, I didn't expect the discussion to go this way. My request was really simple: if you were kicked for running out of time, you don't get to give an expressed opinion on someone i.e. you cannot give a green or red thumb for that game.

The reasons behind this is fairly simple:
a) the player who ran out of time are generally at fault in the first place. In a tournament setting, the player who ran out of time loses by default. In BGA, we allow the option to give the opponent a little leeway, but this shouldn't be taken for granted.
b) to prevent the player from retaliating the player who kicked him with a red thumb. this is very unfair against the player(s) who had waited 3 to 7 minutes (or more for kinder players) and yet still get a red thumb in the end. Some form of "protection" should therefore be put in place.


I generally only give red thumb to player who is rude (language wise). I'm pretty sure some players here give red thumb for various reasons such as:
a) to rude players
b) to players who doesn't respect the spirit of the game (like table talking in hanabi)
c) king-making (these players should be reported!)
d) slow players
e) quitters (this is different from conceding a game because quitting in a multiplayer game might affect the result in the end)
f) conceders (I personally think conceding a game is fair but I can agree to disagree here)
g) just being a sore loser

The karma system that sourisdudesert proposed only helps with problem (e) and (f). Besides that, we already have got the penalty system which is directed for problem (e). Therefore I think this karma system may not be that helpful in replacing the thumb system. A nice way to implement this system is to add another feature on "recent penalties" with a white flag symbol to show the number of games conceded, maybe?
intrepid
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Joined: 19 January 2015, 01:51

Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by intrepid »

Staying on the Subject.Please keep opinions out of your reputation system.it is impossible and has been impossible because its a opinion.And again leads to Discrimination.
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sourisdudesert
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Re: Retaliatory Red Thumb

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hi,

Thanks for your message.

About qpenguin initial request : yes, at now someone expel from a game can give a red thumb. It sounds unfair, but you should also consider the case where a player in a winning position go over the time limit for just 1 second, near the end of the game, and is kicked out by an opponent : in this case, you may want to attribute a red thumb to your opponent.

About private thumb : I agree with senatorhung that it is actually useful to know the "wisdom of the crowd", but as qpenguin says later, players are giving red thumb for various reasons that are all different, and I can't count the number of post/messages received complaining about "I receive a red thumb and I don't know why". This is not possible to satisfy anyone, but as this thumb system is very subjective we'd like to reduce its visibility so that everyone of you don't feel attacked each time you receive a red thumb.
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