Hanabi: False sense of reverse

[iliveudie]

Take the following 3 player game with 4 clues for an example:

What is out:
3R - 2Y - 4G - 4B - 5W - 3M

Hands:
XX XX XX XX XX
4M 2R 3G 1B 4Y
3Y 4G 1R 2Y 1B

As shown, both the 4M and the 3Y are playable cards at this point in time. Now, I have plenty of clues and I have verified that the potential discards are not in danger. I want to get both the 4M and the 3Y out in one clue, so I create a false sense of reverse. I clue Player 2 yellow which marks the 4M (and the 4Y, but that is not important). He can see the yellow 3 that Player 3 is holding in his hand, naturally Player 2 thinks it is a reverse. Having nothing else to clue, he discards. Now Player 3 is wondering why on earth Player 2 would discard when there are 4 clues, nothing so save, and has a 'play'. The only logical thing would be that it looks like some sort of reverse to act on. Player 3 plays the 3Y, it comes back around to Player 2 who then plays the 4M. What we created here was a false reverse where both cards were playable.

Some pitfalls/things to consider. Player 3 may not assume a 'reverse' if Player 2 clues instead of discarding. Let's say this happens; Player 2 clues me. Player 3 then discards because there is no reason for him to see it as a reverse. When it gets back around to Player 2, he should then know it was not a reverse, as Player 3 did not react. This requires complete trust in your team

Of course you could simply clue the 4M as some other color and clue the 3Y next turn, but what is the fun in that??

What do you guys think of this? Am I missing something here?

[AuSmith]

Yes, I think this is good, and there's no reason not to! I've had mild success pulling things like this off - but it's so worth it. Hopefully, people aren't cast into deep confusion, because they only expect standard finesse/bluff moves... It might also be stacked upon! Consider the slightly modified 3p game:

What is out:
3R - 2Y - 4G - 4B - 5W - 3M

Hands:
XX XX XX XX XX
4M 2R 3G 1B 4W
5G 4G 1R 2Y 1B

Suppose P2 did not discard last turn, no untimely discards have been made since, and that P2 knows her discard is not dangerous.

If P1 clues Y to P2, then P2 can discard, making P3 think that P2 sees a Y reverse. P3 plays 5G thinking it would be 3Y, then P2 plays 4M next round. The only risk I see with this is if we have a similar situation... if the 4M changes to a 3Y,

What is out:
3R - 2Y - 4G - 4B - 5W - 3M

Hands:
XX XX XX XX XX
3Y 2R 3G 1B 4W
5G 4G 1R 2Y 1B

Then, P3 may discard the 5G thinking it is 3Y....

[qpenguin]

I know a lot of "Master" players do this but I would highly recommend to avoid so. There could be many different meanings for the discard.

I'm gonna quote AuSmith for this:

The name "L discarding" comes from the L-shape that the collection of saved cards sometimes makes. There are two pieces of public information that I think should be used to measure alarm (the feeling of danger that can be used to impact the magnitude of an L discard) when someone uses L discarding: number of tokens left, and who is scheduled to play in their next turn. If you have nothing to play and you have no tokens, you will have to discard anyway, so L discarding isn't as alarming and should save less drastically. If you have a card to play and tokens available, L discarding is much more alarming and should save more drastically. For simplicity, there will be a number in 0,1,2 that describes how alarming it would be if the next player L discarded:

0) No plays to make (discarding looks normal)
1) Has a play to make, but no tokens (discarding is the first escalation)
2) Has a play to make, and tokens available (even though could make a save clue, still L discards) ~AuSmith

Furthermore, with finesses/bluffs being in used, token shortage is not the main problem in most games. A lot of games could not achieve 30 because their discarded twin is at the bottom of the deck or the pace of the game was delayed.

Use clue tokens efficiently, but don't be stingy with them.